Could the leader we desperately need already be here?

[Frobby]

11 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Oh, stop it.  I shouldn't have to state what you already know.  From 2012-2016 they won more games then any team in the AL.  The won the division in 2014 and went to the playoff 3 times.  So something good was built.

 Over Peter's tenure he has not been a good owner as far a wins go.   But he did two things that are notable.  1) He made a shrew move to get control for MASN when the MLB forced at team into Washington.   Without that move the O's don't have the resources to compete in the AL EAST.    2)  He hired the right people to win from 2012-2016.  And we do have to give him credit for allowing MacPhail to collect talent.  Even though MacPhail could not finish the job.

I am not defend Peter overall impact of the franchise but to say he did build anything is just not true. 

I enjoyed those five years, but if that’s the best five year stretch your franchise has had during your 25-year tenure, you haven’t built much.    And, it was a house of cards.    

No point in arguing it further.    I agree that it will be difficult for Angelos to cede formal control of the team and not have the ability to have the last word, as Ted Lerner just did.   

[Superbee83]

On 6/15/2018 at 6:44 AM, sportsfan8703 said:

Yeah. The leader is here. Jones or Machado. 

The problem is that we have no talent. 

 

    Maybe one of the issues besides lack of talent is the lack of leadership these two have provided. Jones has pretty much immersed     himself in himself in giving management opinions on the team's direction. I recall Jones wanting to have an audience with             ownership over the direction of the team and he was allowed to weigh in. I am pretty sure that he was all in on the Chris Davis contract as well. I blame management more for listening to Jones about the direction of the team. However, he should worry more about playing ball than doing a Lebron James impersonation.Further, if Jones was a real leader he would have moved out of center field a while ago. His inability to cut off Brinson's  ball in the gap showed his lack of speed. Machado flexed his leadership muscle by shoehorning his way onto short this winter. The move weakened the team's defense, but has the potential to enhance his market value. If he is a leader it is certainly not by example. His lack of hustle has been well documented. He is a great player, but I do not see him as a leader. Besides, both of these guys should be moved by the deadline anyway. Maybe that's a good thing. After all, these leaders are leading the team furrther into the abyss of a nightmarish season.

1.  

[Greg Pappas]

3 hours ago, Superbee83 said:

 

    Maybe one of the issues besides lack of talent is the lack of leadership these two have provided. Jones has pretty much immersed     himself in himself in giving management opinions on the team's direction. I recall Jones wanting to have an audience with             ownership over the direction of the team and he was allowed to weigh in. I am pretty sure that he was all in on the Chris Davis contract as well. I blame management more for listening to Jones about the direction of the team. However, he should worry more about playing ball than doing a Lebron James impersonation.Further, if Jones was a real leader he would have moved out of center field a while ago. His inability to cut off Brinson's  ball in the gap showed his lack of speed. Machado flexed his leadership muscle by shoehorning his way onto short this winter. The move weakened the team's defense, but has the potential to enhance his market value. If he is a leader it is certainly not by example. His lack of hustle has been well documented. He is a great player, but I do not see him as a leader. Besides, both of these guys should be moved by the deadline anyway. Maybe that's a good thing. After all, these leaders are leading the team furrther into the abyss of a nightmarish season.

1.  

I think Jones has been a solid leader, and a pillar of the community.

Machado, while an excellent player, is not a leader at this juncture of his career.  If his hustle doesn't improve a great deal, I'm not sure he'll ever be viewed as such.  Time will tell... it always does.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Greg Pappas said:

I think Jones has been a solid leader, and a pillar of the community.

Machado, while an excellent player, is not a leader at this juncture of his career.  If his hustle doesn't improve a great deal, I'm not sure he'll ever be viewed as such.  Time will tell... it always does.

Do you think other players have Does he hustle as a leadership criteria?

[Greg Pappas]

19 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do you think other players have Does he hustle as a leadership criteria?

I'm not sure I understand your question.  Are you referring to Jones or Machado? Was the question something akin to whether their fellow players feel that hustle is a criteria for being a leader?

[SteveA]

On 6/15/2018 at 12:56 PM, Tony-OH said:

I think we'll know all we need to know when we find out who will be running the show.

If it's Brady Anderson then we can expect that John and or brother Louis will run things the same way as their father for the most part.

I've met John a few times and he's been affable, but we'll know a lot more once we know who's really calling the shots (Is Peter back?), but more importantly when they decide who will helm the rebuild, it will tell us volumes.

But if it's Brady "running the show" will we know?   Will they announce a position and powers for him?   Or will it continue to be just what it is now... he has the ear of the owner, the owner trusts his opinion and listens to it when deciding how to proceed; he has a nebulous title with responsibilities that vary from pitching BP to Chris Davis this afternoon to negotiating a free agent signing or a trade the next day?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Greg Pappas said:

I'm not understanding your question. 

You said Machado isn't a leader and that if his hustle doesn't improve he might not ever be considered a leader.

I asked if you think "This guy hustles" is a prerequisite among players in someone they view as a leader.

I think Big Papi was viewed as a leader among players and I don't think he hustled.

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, Superbee83 said:

Further, if Jones was a real leader he would have moved out of center field a while ago... Machado flexed his leadership muscle by shoehorning his way onto short this winter. 

I don’t blame these things on lack of leadership qualities by the players.   I blame them on lack of leadership by Buck and the front office.   

Davey Johnson had the stones to move Cal off shortstop, and Gillick had the foresight to go get a defensive upgrade in Bordick.   That’s what leadership is supposed to look like.    

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t blame these things on lack of leadership qualities by the players.   I blame them on lack of leadership by Buck and the front office.   

Davey Johnson had the stones to move Cal off shortstop, and Gillick had the foresight to go get a defensive upgrade in Bordick.   That’s what leadership is supposed to look like.    

Dan did trade for Beckham, which should have been enough to keep Machado at third.

[Greg Pappas]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

You said Machado isn't a leader and that if his hustle doesn't improve he might not ever be considered a leader.

I asked if you think "This guy hustles" is a prerequisite among players in someone they view as a leader.

I think Big Papi was viewed as a leader among players and I don't think he hustled.

Truthfully I don't know how the players view these things.  Maybe it depends on the makeup of the team?  I know how I was taught to play baseball, and how the game is supposed to be played, yet many major league players do not show the hustle that they should.  

[Greg Pappas]

7 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t blame these things on lack of leadership qualities by the players.   I blame them on lack of leadership by Buck and the front office.   

Davey Johnson had the stones to move Cal off shortstop, and Gillick had the foresight to go get a defensive upgrade in Bordick.   That’s what leadership is supposed to look like.    

THIS.

[Superbee83]

47 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t blame these things on lack of leadership qualities by the players.   I blame them on lack of leadership by Buck and the front office.   

Davey Johnson had the stones to move Cal off shortstop, and Gillick had the foresight to go get a defensive upgrade in Bordick.   That’s what leadership is supposed to look like.    

     I agree with your point. Showalter lost control a while ago.

     

[Tx Oriole]

8 hours ago, Frobby said:

What has he “built?”    He took a wrecking ball to a once-proud franchise.    

He sure did. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Superbee83 said:

     I agree with your point. Showalter lost control a while ago.

     

As I look back on things, I think Buck has gotten too attached to the players who brought him success here.   Loyalty is a great trait, and on a certain level I admire him for it.    You have to be supportive of your players to be a good manager.    But you also have to be cold blooded, and Buck seems to have lost the ability to do that after being in the trenches with these guys all these years.

I remember when Earl Weaver retired the first time he said a main reason was that it was getting too hard to tell players they were through.    He’d always been able to know when it was time to cut bait with a player, but it got harder and harder to do it on a personal level.   Beneath that gruff exterior, he really loved his players.   And Buck does too.    Too much, at times.   

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, SteveA said:

But if it's Brady "running the show" will we know?   Will they announce a position and powers for him?   Or will it continue to be just what it is now... he has the ear of the owner, the owner trusts his opinion and listens to it when deciding how to proceed; he has a nebulous title with responsibilities that vary from pitching BP to Chris Davis this afternoon to negotiating a free agent signing or a trade the next day?

I'd imagine we would know if Brady is introducing the new "Gm" at the press conference.