Machado to the Dodgers, 5-1 deal

[Philip]

19 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No, it’s not an indictment of DD unless he had another deal on the table that he didn’t like as much but turns out, it was the best return.

The indictment on this trade is 100% on the shoulders of ownership and, to a lesser extent, Buck.

That is only partially true if Dan were clamoring to trade Manny the previous year and Management refused to allow it.

But part of being a GM is knowing more than Ownership and being able to guide Ownership to accepting your vision. They write the checks, the GM is supposed to make decisions. Assuming Dan had his hands tied(and we don’t know how much he agreed with Ownership) it is to his discredit that he was unable to explain why the current path was straight to Doom. And too many trades like the Matusz/Webb fiascos, the Parra trade and such, indicate that he was too weak to make his point. And even with a seemingly free hand, Dan had lousy judgement.

It is completely moot now, but I stand by my comment. Dan was a fool, he is well away and should have been sooner.

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, Philip said:

That is only partially true if Dan were clamoring to trade Manny the previous year and Management refused to allow it.

But part of being a GM is knowing more than Ownership and being able to guide Ownership to accepting your vision. They write the checks, the GM is supposed to make decisions. Assuming Dan had his hands tied(and we don’t know how much he agreed with Ownership) it is to his discredit that he was unable to explain why the current path was straight to Doom. And too many trades like the Matusz/Webb fiascos, the Parra trade and such, indicate that he was too weak to make his point. And even with a seemingly free hand, Dan had lousy judgement.

It is completely moot now, but I stand by my comment. Dan was a fool, he is well away and should have been sooner.

Yes, you would hope your Gm could talk your owner into things..but Buck handcuffed Duq and had more power and PA was/is a terrible owner who thought he knew more than his GMs.

This wasn’t a normal situation.

[Philip]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes, you would hope your Gm could talk your owner into things..but Buck handcuffed Duq and had more power and PA was/is a terrible owner who thought he knew more than his GMs.

This wasn’t a normal situation.

I agree that Buck meddled, but when Buck is screaming that Tillman, whose shoulder was forever ruined, deserved 3 million guaranteed and won’t even let anyone watch him pitch, and Dan is unable to convince anyone that that is completely ridiculous, that’s on Dan, and signing Alvarez and Valencia and assembling a team with four or five DH players who are useless anywhere else is also on Dan. And doing less than zero to acquire some pitching for when Tillman proved he was toast is on Dan. So even if Buck meddled, the things he advocated were so stupid that it is a reflection on Dan that he was unable to accomplish a single thing in dealing with them.

[panick]

On 5/23/2021 at 8:02 AM, Sports Guy said:

You can’t judge a trade on results unless you know of another deal that was on the table that they passed up.

Otherwise, you have to rate the process.  The Orioles trades a few months of Manny and got back a guy who was a top 50 prospect, a UtI prospect, a very good BP arm prospect and a starting pitcher prospect.

Its not DDs fault that Elias was a moron when he exposed Pop.  
 

Kremer has come to the majors and been up and down.  We don’t know his future.

Diaz has been hurt but when healthy, he has been a good player and still had good upside.  
 

Bannon is an unknown but is progressing nicely.

So, not only was the trade itself fine, the idea that anyone is talking about closing the book on it is absurd.  We don’t have anywhere near a conclusion to this story.

There is another thread about how the Bundy trade is looking better.  Really?  So, this trade is terrible even though 2 of the players are in the majors and 2 others are knocking on the door but the Bundy trade looks better because in a SSS this year he sucks and a few of the players we got, again in a SSS, are performing very well.  But if they fizzle out, will that trade still look better?  
 

 

Bannon is progressing nicely? And is he one of the players knocking on the door? Really???

[jabba72]

1 hour ago, MurphDogg said:

I wouldn't trade either Diaz or Kremer for a supplemental first round pick one for one and neither, I suspect, would any GM in baseball.

Kremer is 25 and has made 12 MLB starts. The list of starting pitchers who have been mediocre through their first dozen starters and turned into decent starting pitchers is longer than the list of pitchers who were great from the beginning. A supplemental first round pick even reaching the Majors is a win, let alone making a dozen MLB starts in his whole career.

Diaz is 24 and has been decent when healthy and the injuries, while annoying, don't seem to be related to a single thing. It isn't like he has a degenerative hip or a bad back or something. Patience is a virtue.

They are both fast approaching now or never age though, and With Diaz's constant injuries, im starting to lose hope he'll ever be productive. I dont have any hope Bannon will ever be a regular. 

[scOtt]

51 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes, you would hope your Gm could talk your owner into things..but Buck handcuffed Duq and had more power and PA was/is a terrible owner who thought he knew more than his GMs.

This wasn’t a normal situation.

I'm not even sure PA was in control at the time. By that I mean not in control of himself, his mind. I don't think The Bros were completely in control yet either. So.... nobody was really in control. IMO...

[Sports Guy]

Just now, scOtt said:

I'm not even sure PA was in control at the time. By that I mean not in control of himself, his mind. I don't think The Bros were completely in control yet either. So.... nobody was really in control. IMO...

But Angelos was in control after 2016 and 2017...Manny should have been dealt sooner but Buck and PA wouldn’t allow it.

[scOtt]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

But Angelos was in control after 2016 and 2017...Manny should have been dealt sooner but Buck and PA wouldn’t allow it.

True. "We can still WIN!"

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

I am still bothered by them not protecting Pop. Will he be an all-time elite closer in the history of the game? Unlikely. But why in the world leave him unprotected when there NUMEROUS options to put him on the 40-man. Just mind boggling for an organization that needs to keep valuable prospects.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

6 minutes ago, NelsonCruuuuuz said:

I am still bothered by them not protecting Pop. Will he be an all-time elite closer in the history of the game? Unlikely. But why in the world leave him unprotected when there NUMEROUS options to put him on the 40-man. Just mind boggling for an organization that needs to keep valuable prospects.

Maybe it had to do with Pop only pitching 10.2 innings in 2019 and then no innings because of Covid in 2020? Elias might have gambled on Pop's lack of playing time letting let him fly under the radar come the Rule V draft.

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

18 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Maybe it had to do with Pop only pitching 10.2 innings in 2019 and then no innings because of Covid in 2020? Elias might have gambled on Pop's lack of playing time letting let him fly under the radar come the Rule V draft.

No doubt, but not a gamble I would have made.

[Philip]

The Pop Question is one that I wish the beats would push on a little bit. I realize that you have to be tactful and courteous in order to even have access to the man you wish to interview, but you have to be allowed to ask controversial questions, oh there’s no point to pretending to be anything other than a propaganda mouthpiece. Ask Mike why he preferred all the marginal guys on the 40, who have since been dumped. And get an answer. His answer will be revealing.

[LookinUp]

I accept the premise that the timing of the Machado trade was not in Dan's control. 

I think Dan's biggest problem was his ability to identify guys we want back. I feel like he didn't have an advanced eye for talent, which means he essentially was beholden to conventional wisdom and/or Buck's conventional wisdom, neither of which leads to a good GM.

So my problem isn't that Dan made the Machado at the wrong time, it's that Dan was ever in charge of making the Machado trade. He was the wrong guy for the job, so we're stuck with it.

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

41 minutes ago, Philip said:

The Pop Question is one that I wish the beats would push on a little bit. I realize that you have to be tactful and courteous in order to even have access to the man you wish to interview, but you have to be allowed to ask controversial questions, oh there’s no point to pretending to be anything other than a propaganda mouthpiece. Ask Mike why he preferred all the marginal guys on the 40, who have since been dumped. And get an answer. His answer will be revealing.

Great post!!!!

[SteveA]

57 minutes ago, Philip said:

The Pop Question is one that I wish the beats would push on a little bit. I realize that you have to be tactful and courteous in order to even have access to the man you wish to interview, but you have to be allowed to ask controversial questions, oh there’s no point to pretending to be anything other than a propaganda mouthpiece. Ask Mike why he preferred all the marginal guys on the 40, who have since been dumped. And get an answer. His answer will be revealing.

No it won't.