Buck and the rebuild

[LookinUp]

Is he gone after the end of this season? I’d have to say yes. Here are a few reasons why.

1. He’s old. I’d imagine him wanting a job like the Nats (if they paid), not a multi-year rebuild with kids.

2. He’s expensive. We’re cutting costs. Results almost don’t matter the next two years. I think we save the money with a younger, cheaper staff.

3. Our pitching development has failed outside of a couple of bullpen arms. I’d imagine we want to rebuild our pitching approach beyond the players.

4. Our hitting approach is counter to the rest of baseball. Power is great, but the first pitch outs are counter to what MLB is doing.

5. Much like the NYY and Arizona, he may have worn out his welcome. Buck is beloved in this town, and rightfully so (IMO), but whatever magic he brings may now be falling on deaf ears. 

One could easily make the case that Buck knows how to win and would be better than any other manager leading a rebuild. Still, is there any way Buck is part of this rebuild after the end of this season? I don’t think so.

[Frobby]

I think reason no. 2 is pretty big.    

[Sanfran327]

49 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think reason no. 2 is pretty big.    

In favor of moving on from him? If so, we have vastly different takes on this topic.

Results don't matter one bit in terms of wins and losses, but the impression Buck made on the guys at the end of 2011 resulted in 2012-2016. Rather than signing him on for another 5 year run or something, I'd offer him 3 years or so and let him work his magic with focusing on the fundamentals, then transition a still young but slightly more veteran team (that is ready to win some meaningful games again) to another manager that doesn't possess the same flaws that Buck does.

Buck absolutely played the game to win when he first got here. He got away from that as the talent gap grew between his dependable veterans and the AAAA players he had to maintain on his roster, and he became more predictable and less flexible. If he can show some of his 2011 characteristics over the last two months of this season, I'd like to see him back at least through 2020, if not 2021.

[El_Duderino]

Reason #2 is why the Nats won’t go for him. 

But more to your OP - I have no idea if it’s time to move on from Buck. The fact that we are still trotting our Caleb Jospeh on a regular basis makes me think no. 

[foxfield]

17 minutes ago, Sanfran327 said:

In favor of moving on from him? If so, we have vastly different takes on this topic.

Results don't matter one bit in terms of wins and losses, but the impression Buck made on the guys at the end of 2011 resulted in 2012-2016. Rather than signing him on for another 5 year run or something, I'd offer him 3 years or so and let him work his magic with focusing on the fundamentals, then transition a still young but slightly more veteran team (that is ready to win some meaningful games again) to another manager that doesn't possess the same flaws that Buck does.

Buck absolutely played the game to win when he first got here. He got away from that as the talent gap grew between his dependable veterans and the AAAA players he had to maintain on his roster, and he became more predictable and less flexible. If he can show some of his 2011 characteristics over the last two months of this season, I'd like to see him back at least through 2020, if not 2021.

I admit that I think all of this is true. But the question on Buck is still way more complicated than you propose. AM left in part because he didn’t have the ability to pick his own manager. DD came and had to take a manager who until recently seemed to have a pretty say in roster moves. 

How all of this shakes out in the “new” future of the Orioles is in my opinion still unknown but vital to the success of the new plan. In fact, it will be the defining moment of the next act. The opening scene of the rebuild has been staged. The foreshadowing is ominous and yet the fortunes of DD, Buck and Brady have evolved in a cliffhanger fashion. 

I am thrilled we were bold enough to go for a total rebuild even if I am unsure about prospects being so far away. I love that we hear the reins have been handed off regarding ownership and that we are diving in to the international market. All of that sounds great. 

I am unbridled in enthusiastic support of the plan. But caution dictates that a new way, a plan, must have someone in charge who is accountable and has the power to hold others accountable.  Until the Orioles put one person in that position I will drink the koolaid, but I’m just sippin. You know? 

And while I agree with everything you say. There is no path forward for Buck unless DD is extended and then he himself extends Buck. If DD is gone but Buck stays, then there is no new way. The same is true if ownership extends them both. Nope. It’s either a clean slate for a new GM or DD stays and decides who he keeps. There are other possible iterations of course, but they become less and less likely to create any thing “new.”

 Or I could be wrong. 

[Sanfran327]

37 minutes ago, foxfield said:

I admit that I think all of this is true. But the question on Buck is still way more complicated than you propose. AM left in part because he didn’t have the ability to pick his own manager. DD came and had to take a manager who until recently seemed to have a pretty say in roster moves. 

How all of this shakes out in the “new” future of the Orioles is in my opinion still unknown but vital to the success of the new plan. In fact, it will be the defining moment of the next act. The opening scene of the rebuild has been staged. The foreshadowing is ominous and yet the fortunes of DD, Buck and Brady have evolved in a cliffhanger fashion. 

I am thrilled we were bold enough to go for a total rebuild even if I am unsure about prospects being so far away. I love that we hear the reins have been handed off regarding ownership and that we are diving in to the international market. All of that sounds great. 

I am unbridled in enthusiastic support of the plan. But caution dictates that a new way, a plan, must have someone in charge who is accountable and has the power to hold others accountable.  Until the Orioles put one person in that position I will drink the koolaid, but I’m just sippin. You know? 

And while I agree with everything you say. There is no path forward for Buck unless DD is extended and then he himself extends Buck. If DD is gone but Buck stays, then there is no new way. The same is true if ownership extends them both. Nope. It’s either a clean slate for a new GM or DD stays and decides who he keeps. There are other possible iterations of course, but they become less and less likely to create any thing “new.”

 Or I could be wrong. 

The nuance to the next phase you address here is absolutely important. There has to be a demonstrated synergy between the GM and the manager. And while I believe there has been that synergy here in Baltimore between DD and Buck (GMs and managers/head coaches clash from time to time in all sports in even the most successful franchises), it's important that our GM and manager, whether it's DD and Buck, one or the other, or neither. 

I like the idea of keeping Buck because it allows me to be mentally lazy. I couldn't begin to tell you who a suitable replacement is for him. I kind of feel like our FO feels the same way (not the lazy part), because he may be gone already if they had a viable alternative in mind. The one guy I can think of - who is also a lazy idea - is JJ Hardy, but only because he's a Buck disciple, and I believe he'd prioritize the same fundamentals and approach that Buck always has.

[Roll Tide]

51 minutes ago, El_Duderino said:

Reason #2 is why the Nats won’t go for him. 

But more to your OP - I have no idea if it’s time to move on from Buck. The fact that we are still trotting our Caleb Jospeh on a regular basis makes me think no. 

I'm sure they'd like to flip Caleb if possible in August. If he continues to hit we might get something of value back.

[Just Regular]

I know the Nationals have treated managers like we've treated the international market, but we changed.  I'm not sure they will change too, but if this year's implosion finishes and Martinez has to go, Buck in DC would be very like the baseball gods.  Just like Schoop v. Manny in LA tonight.

[baltfan]

#4 is no longer true.  There is a movement in baseball to swing at the first pitch.  Theory is that the days of exhausting starters are gone. Bullpens are better than ever.  First strike might be best strike. 

[tntoriole]

It should be the new GM’s call.  Period.  If that is Dan and he wants Buck, I am fine.  If not, I am fine with that too.   And if it is Dan that is the new GM,  and if John A is the new defacto voice of ownership, then it needs to be made clear to Buck that a new contract will mean his line of reporting will be directly to Dan only, and no longer to ownership at all.    Same with Brady.   And that Dan hires and fires them, period. 

If, for any reason, this is not OK, then I would thank Buck for his service and move on.   Now, if I am Dan, I would likely move on from both Buck and Brady no matter what just to clarify who is in charge of the rebuild going forward.  But maybe Dan and Buck  have a better relationship that could work the changes through....up to Dan.   He should marginalize Brady though as much as possible or fire him. 

[Bradysburns]

I'm 100% behind bring back Dan and letting him decide. Buck, too, will have a say here. 

He may not be up for a total rebuild, or he may be. 

I could see him LOVING it, waking up every day... teaching guys how to straighten their caps and be men, etc. I could also see him loving the idea of being a true underdog, every night, and sticking it to the Yankees and Red Sox more often than people think we should. 

Personally, I wouldn't mind having Buck back. I think he brings a lot to the table, and I suspect he's a better manager of young talent than veteran talent. 

But again, whatever Dan decides... I'd be good with that, too. 

Either way, I'll be sad to see Buck go, if he does. He's been a great, great Orioles manager and he turned us around when we were truly hopeless. 

[sportsfan8703]

Crazy theory time. First time I’ve been able to post via mobile without that glitch in days. Plus I really can’t pull the message board up at work after the infamous “Hangout is Porn” thread. That was a super great idea. So here’s my theory...

Buck back in 2021 as manager to start the year. 

Hyde takes the all the losses.  Elias realizes nobody else will take the job. Buck’s batteries are recharged and he wants to come back. 

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Crazy theory time. First time I’ve been able to post via mobile without that glitch in days. Plus I really can’t pull the message board up at work after the infamous “Hangout is Porn” thread. That was a super great idea. So here’s my theory...

Buck back in 2021 as manager to start the year. 

Hyde takes the all the losses.  Elias realizes nobody else will take the job. Buck’s batteries are recharged and he wants to come back. 

Emphasis here on crazy.  We've moved on, Buck has moved on.  I'd guess most rebuilding teams ready to surge into contention don't hire old managers, although I guess I should look it up.  Life isn't The Natural or Major League.

[LA2]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Crazy theory time. First time I’ve been able to post via mobile without that glitch in days. Plus I really can’t pull the message board up at work after the infamous “Hangout is Porn” thread. That was a super great idea. So here’s my theory...

Buck back in 2021 as manager to start the year. 

Hyde takes the all the losses.  Elias realizes nobody else will take the job. Buck’s batteries are recharged and he wants to come back. 

That's almost as good a idea as signing Adam Jones up to play CF in 2020-22.

[esmd]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Crazy theory time. First time I’ve been able to post via mobile without that glitch in days. Plus I really can’t pull the message board up at work after the infamous “Hangout is Porn” thread. That was a super great idea. So here’s my theory...

Buck back in 2021 as manager to start the year. 

Hyde takes the all the losses.  Elias realizes nobody else will take the job. Buck’s batteries are recharged and he wants to come back. 

You summed your post up in the first sentence.  Never gonna happen.