So: at the end of the day, who was to blame for Chris Tillman?

[tntoriole]

5 hours ago, interloper said:

By which I mean, who ignored all the data that said the guy, even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was actually healthy, had clearly lost the physical ability to pitch? Who thought, sure, give me 7 more starts of that guy for a few million dollars? 

You have to think it was Buck, especially in light of Dan's recent comments.

What comments? 

[atomic]

Roch repeatedly said some in the front office were saying they had all last season to fox Tillman and couldn't get it done.  I am guessing DD was against it and either Brady or Buck or both wanted him.  I am betting on both.  

[Frobby]

My answer to the question: at this point, who cares?     I just want a new management team that won’t repeat that kind of mistake.   

[hoosiers]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

My answer to the question: at this point, who cares?     I just want a new management team that won’t repeat that kind of mistake.   

It's not that big of a mistake.  The Os took a chance on a comeback from Tillman. It failed. Teams place their bets on these type of comebacks all the time.  There wasn't a suitable fifth starter and the FO tried to catch lightning in a bottle based on what Tillman showed (and could possibly have improved upon) at a point in time. 

[24fps]

1 hour ago, hoosiers said:

It's not that big of a mistake.  The Os took a chance on a comeback from Tillman. It failed. Teams place their bets on these type of comebacks all the time.  There wasn't a suitable fifth starter and the FO tried to catch lightning in a bottle based on what Tillman showed (and could possibly have improved upon) at a point in time. 

Andy MacPhail found it useful to refer to the Garrett Atkins signing as "a swing for the fences".  It must have been a momentary lapse for good ole Andy, because "lightning in a bottle" is much more evocative for deals of this caliber.  All the clubs falling all over themselves throwing money and major league contracts at Tillman after his um, remarkable 2017 campaign is reason enough to celebrate that it only cost the Orioles $3 million to gamble on a jackpot worth maybe $47.50 at the time.

[hoosiers]

Teams make these kind of investments all the time.  Didn't DD sign Damion Easley or someone similar to a multi-$M deal?  Teams take flyers on fourth and fifth starters all the time.

The Os run out a $140M-$160M payroll with a horrible w-l record and the criticism is the $3M flyer on Tillman as a move of sheer stupidity?

[theocean]

1 hour ago, hoosiers said:

It's not that big of a mistake.  The Os took a chance on a comeback from Tillman. It failed. Teams place their bets on these type of comebacks all the time.  There wasn't a suitable fifth starter and the FO tried to catch lightning in a bottle based on what Tillman showed (and could possibly have improved upon) at a point in time. 

Yeah, it really isn't that big of a mistake. Low risk, high reward. There was no reward. Not signing Tillman wasn't going to somehow make Chris Davis remember how to hit, or make Alex Cobb pitch not like trash, or make Trumbo actually play more than four games, or make Schoop play like someone who was an All-Star the year before, or make Jones find the Fountain of Youth in center field, or make the Farm System to suddenly figure out how to develop a pitcher. 

I'd put it at a "Derek Lee could be good at first base" level mistake. No where near a "Let's trade Gausman for International Money that we will never use" mistake. 

[Satyr3206]

16 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

File this under the do not care category for me.  Tillman is gone, Buck is gone, DD is gone.  Unfortunately, Brady remains.  

And people still love to yap about it.

[Chromehill]

7 hours ago, theocean said:

Yeah, it really isn't that big of a mistake. Low risk, high reward. There was no reward. Not signing Tillman wasn't going to somehow make Chris Davis remember how to hit, or make Alex Cobb pitch not like trash, or make Trumbo actually play more than four games, or make Schoop play like someone who was an All-Star the year before, or make Jones find the Fountain of Youth in center field, or make the Farm System to suddenly figure out how to develop a pitcher. 

I'd put it at a "Derek Lee could be good at first base" level mistake. No where near a "Let's trade Gausman for International Money that we will never use" mistake. 

Agree.  Who cares if Tillman failed as the 5th starter, problem for the 2018 O's was the first through fourth starters along with a lot of other things. 

No doubt it was an ill advised signing and no idea what the O's were looking at when evaluating him over the winter.  Just another example of Orioles dysfunction that hopefully will be part of the dust bin of history going forward. 

[Aglets]

I always thought this was a Brady move.........I believe Roch reported that Brady called Tillman to tell him the O's were interested in him immediately after the '17 season ended.

But based on some things Buck said, I think he was probably in favor as well.   So I can blame both of them.

Now if you can tell me who pushed for the Davis contract............

[Enjoy Terror]

It’s not so much that I’m upset we re-signed Tillman but curious to know why they paid him so much to come back. There are better veteran pitchers in the minors making league minimum, I dunno why he was the exception. Unless it was some sort of like... “career bonus” that the O’s like to give players on the way out (Roberts, Davis).

I’m really not sure I understand why he was in the MLB rotation at all tho.

[24fps]

10 hours ago, hoosiers said:

Teams make these kind of investments all the time.  Didn't DD sign Damion Easley or someone similar to a multi-$M deal?  Teams take flyers on fourth and fifth starters all the time.

The Os run out a $140M-$160M payroll with a horrible w-l record and the criticism is the $3M flyer on Tillman as a move of sheer stupidity?

Bringing Tillman back on a minor league contract with a spring invite is taking a flyer.  Giving him a ML contract after his 2017 season is best characterized as throwing an old pal a $3 million bone when the handwriting is on the wall.

I'm not quite sure what the overall team budget has to do with anything, because the deal was terrible on its own merits.  

[Camden_yardbird]

For too many starts...it was Dan and Buck.  There is no 100% blame here.  The GM makes the personnel decisions and the coach deploys those players.  They should have looked at the evidence (which didn't require advanced statistics) and realized it wasn't working and communicated that.

[hoosiers]

16 minutes ago, 24fps said:

Bringing Tillman back on a minor league contract with a spring invite is taking a flyer.  Giving him a ML contract after his 2017 season is best characterized as throwing an old pal a $3 million bone when the handwriting is on the wall.

I'm not quite sure what the overall team budget has to do with anything, because the deal was terrible on its own merits.  

Not going to get into it here, because this was a small part of the team - someone willing to take a role as a fifth starter.  Someone the organization knew well and who appeared to show enough stuff to warrant a $3M flyer on a comeback story that teams make all the time.  At the time of the signing, ST had already started, Cashner had just signed and the likely rotation included Bundy, Gausman and Cashner with Ynoa and Castro as likely 4 and 5.  Hence the signing of Tillman and, later, Cobb.

What I will say is that our front office was likely 100% focused on winning baseball and any characterization that the team was giving $3M and a 25 man roster spot to "an old pal" as possibly a favor or any final $ for someone who may have provided more value than his compensation during his time in Bmore is entirely incorrect.  As noted in the article below, Tillman worked out at the Os Sarasota facility over the winter and worked out for the Orioles and showed the stuff worthy of the deal he received.  The article also notes how Tillman threw for the Twins and Tigers prior to signing with the Os.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bs-sp-orioles-tillman-20180219-story.html

The Orioles allowed Tillman to work out at the Ed Smith Stadium facility in Sarasota — where he owns a home — in the offseason, and they saw enough signals that he could find his past form.

“[Looked] good … real good, better than he did last year at this time,” manager Buck Showalter said without specifically confirming that Tillman had agreed to terms. “I think he’s got the chance to pitch well for somebody this year. … A lot of the challenges he had last year — this time last year — aren’t there. Somebody’s going to reap the benefits.”

…….. later in the article

Even though it’s a short-term fix, the Orioles entered camp in desperate need of proven starters — just 10 of their 36 pitchers in big league camp entering Monday have made a major league start — the return of Tillman makes sense, especially if the Orioles are convinced that he will be healthy again.

[drjohnnyfeva]

21 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I've never heard of Dan being involved with the Trumbo signing.

And would it have made a difference if Buck and/or Brady worked out the Tillman deal and than Ownership told Dan to sign him?

 

20 hours ago, Going Underground said:

I think he was somewhat. Brady got Trumbo to stay by offering him a semi no trade clause. 

See, now I distinctly recall reading that Dan lobbied for signing Trumbo so as to have some power left in the lineup if Davis were to leave in FA the following year.  I think part of the piece I read stating that Dan thought there were other opportunities than Davis.  It was very plausible, at the time, that Davis would be leaving.

I'm not sure I understand the furor over Tillman.  3 Million seems sort of paltry for Major League starter.  That sounds just weird to say...  Yet those types of signings do happen all the time with teams looking for lightening in a bottle from a vet. 

What's more bothersome to me is how wrong the "scouting" on him was.  The same could be said of Davis too.  What did they see that made them think he could capture the lightening?  Same thing with Davis... did they not notice the analytics of slowing bat speed, etc?