After a month of reflection, I still can’t believe how bad this team was

[wildbillhiccup]

2 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

So it was wrong and didnt work.

My main point was, it didn't ruin the entire season.

 

It was our window...and Buck slammed it shut. Still a good season, but a HUGE missed opportunity. And I'd argue even more painful now knowing that this team is going to be horrendous for years to come. 

[Frobby]

53 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

It was our window...and Buck slammed it shut. Still a good season, but a HUGE missed opportunity. And I'd argue even more painful now knowing that this team is going to be horrendous for years to come. 

I mean, we were an 89-win wild card team.    If we used Britton, maybe we win that game, but maybe we don't.    The offense had done absolutely nothing for 6 or 7 innings up to the last inning, and their pitcher (Liriano) was cruising.   We had no baserunners in the final four innings of the game.

But let's say we win that game.   Were we likely to make a deep playoff run?    I'd say no.    Toronto did go on to beat Texas before losing to Cleveland.    But we would not have been favored in any series we played.

[Redskins Rick]

52 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I mean, we were an 89-win wild card team.    If we used Britton, maybe we win that game, but maybe we don't.    The offense had done absolutely nothing for 6 or 7 innings up to the last inning, and their pitcher (Liriano) was cruising.   We had no baserunners in the final four innings of the game.

But let's say we win that game.   Were we likely to make a deep playoff run?    I'd say no.    Toronto did go on to beat Texas before losing to Cleveland.    But we would not have been favored in any series we played.

Thanks for the nice post, and well said.

[JR Oriole]

14 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Thanks for the nice post, and well said.

I do not think we were scoring again in that game no matter what happened on the mound.  Our hitters were swinging and missing miserably at every pitch thrown, regardless of where it was.  I know it has been said that the playoffs are a crapshoot (which I don't believe), but that Orioles team was going absolutely nowhere.  Watching the Red Sox and other good teams in the playoffs exercise patience at the plate and not swinging at pitches out of the strike zone was enlightening for any Orioles fan used to years of horrendous plate discipline. 

[Redskins Rick]

3 minutes ago, JR Oriole said:

I do not think we were scoring again in that game no matter what happened on the mound.  Our hitters were swinging and missing miserably at every pitch thrown, regardless of where it was.  I know it has been said that the playoffs are a crapshoot (which I don't believe), but that Orioles team was going absolutely nowhere.  Watching the Red Sox and other good teams in the playoffs exercise patience at the plate and not swinging at pitches out of the strike zone was enlightening for any Orioles fan used to years of horrendous plate discipline. 

The best team in the season, isn't always the winning WS team.

It all comes down to who is healthiest, who isnt affected by cold weather and a bit of luck.

Look at 83 and Dempsey? Nobody including his own family knew Dempsey was going to pick up a hot bat and cause fear in the opposing team, not with Murray and Ripken Jr on that team. So call it luck, call it, the Gods of baseball, or just call it a crapshot. whatever you want, it does matter.

 

 

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I respectfully disagree. Blaming this on underperformance somewhat absolves ownership/management of assembling one of the worst teams in MLB history. Davis, Cashner, and Beckham are all bad players. Sisco was a complete wildcard and the regressions for Mancini, Bundy, and Jones were somewhat expected. In fact the only player who I think legitimately underperformed was Cobb. Also, ownership/management put this team in a position to be terrible defensively by rostering up to a half dozen gloried DHs. Trumbo, Mancini, Alvarez, Valencia, Beckham, etc. Everyone who had a hand in this who can be fired should be fired, but unfortunately there's still one side burned barnacle still clinging to the underside of the ship. 

 

Both/and. For sure the organization made mistakes. That said, the players certainly underperformed. Bundy was coming off 13-9/4.24 in his first full year as a starter. Cobb went from 3.66 to 4.90 (and that was with a 2.56 ERA second half!). Even Davis, the level of his suckitude is close to unprecedented.

Absolutely nobody on this board predicted 47 wins, so you cannot say this was completely predictable. In the grade-the-preaseason thread, 80% of the Hangout said A or B. Certainly there was a group calling for full rebuild, and perhaps you were one of them, but it did not look truly terrible at the time.

 

[JR Oriole]

50 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

The best team in the season, isn't always the winning WS team.

It all comes down to who is healthiest, who isnt affected by cold weather and a bit of luck.

Look at 83 and Dempsey? Nobody including his own family knew Dempsey was going to pick up a hot bat and cause fear in the opposing team, not with Murray and Ripken Jr on that team. So call it luck, call it, the Gods of baseball, or just call it a crapshot. whatever you want, it does matter.

 

 

It may be that it isn't the "best" team that wins, but usually it is a very good one.  Now recently, the 15 Royals, 16 Cubs, 17 Astros, and 18 Red Sox were all really good teams and probably the best or close to the best teams in baseball in each of those years.  Off the top of my head, the Giants teams that recently won and the 06 Cardinals were probably the least impressive (on paper) teams to win the title in the last 20+ years.  Prior to the wild card era, when you immediately advanced to the LCS, I think you had a better chance of winning the WS as an inferior team (like the 88 Dodgers, 90 Reds, or 91 Twins). 

[atomic]

8 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

I would rather have 2016 end on a bad note like that.

Its also only stupid, because it didnt work, and hindsight allows you to continue to complain about it.

 Then to spend an entire season and win 50 games.

No it was stupidest decision ever made in pro-sports. It would have been stupid if it worked.  Hindsight? I was yelling at the screen when it happened.  

[mrpennybags]

Probably the worst record anyone will have for a while. So any time an MLB team is having a terrible season they'll be 'the worst team since the 2018 Orioles.' Davis is going to stick out on all 'worst player seasons of all time' too.

[foxfield]

5 hours ago, atomic said:

No it was stupidest decision ever made in pro-sports. It would have been stupid if it worked.  Hindsight? I was yelling at the screen when it happened.  

Breathe in.....breathe out.   It's ok.   So you were yelling in the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th too right?  I mean Donnie Hart threw to 1 batter in the bottom of the 7th.  Brach Threw the 8th and lasted one out into the 9th...Darren O'Day finished the 9th and the 10th.  Brian Duensing got one out in the 11th before Ubaldo entered.

My point isn't to say that Zach not pitching wasn't a mistake.  Without question it was.  But the Orioles had 4 hits in 11 innings and scored their only two runs in the 4th inning.  And from Brach on...we were one pitch away from elimination.  Buck rolled the dice hoping for a run that didn't come.  He also rolled the dice from at least the ninth on holding onto Zach and finally rolled snake eyes with Ubaldo.

But the fact is IF he had played it conventionally, Britton would have pitched the 9th and maybe the 10th and then he would have been done.  Sure maybe that stretches the game into the 12th...we will never know.  And yes having rolled the dice and extending the game into the 11th, Zach should have come in.  No one should deny that ever.  

But if you google the worst decisions in baseball playoff history, you won't find this game.  You will find Buck Showalter...from 1995, in the ALDS (with Yankees) Buck went with Jack McDowell in the...wait for it...11th inning.  

My point is, outside of here, no one thinks its one of the worst decisions ever...not in baseball, not in sports.  And as any Yankee fan knows...not even in Bucks career.

No, the decision in 16 was a mistake that brought an inevitable end to a barely there playoff run.  And yes lightning could have stuck...if only.  But it did prove one thing....Buck perhaps out thinks himself in the 11th inning.  You could look it up!

[LA2]

15 hours ago, JR Oriole said:

I do not think we were scoring again in that game no matter what happened on the mound.  Our hitters were swinging and missing miserably at every pitch thrown, regardless of where it was.  I know it has been said that the playoffs are a crapshoot (which I don't believe), but that Orioles team was going absolutely nowhere.  Watching the Red Sox and other good teams in the playoffs exercise patience at the plate and not swinging at pitches out of the strike zone was enlightening for any Orioles fan used to years of horrendous plate discipline. 

Liriano was exactly the type of pitcher the Orioles lineup had had trouble with all season. Using him as a reliever was a great move by John Gibbons, a manager who had previously never impressed me. My guess is that Buck was playing for when Liriano wouldn't still be on the mound and the O's had a chance to score off a weak Jays pen. That was when Britton would be brought in--to outpitch the Jays pen.

It's not what I would have done, what the other O's fans I watched the game with in the SRO O's bar in the East Village of NYC (The Horse Box) screaming for Britton to be brought in, or how the other managers used the back of their pens in the subsequent postseason games. I've always thought Francona, Maddon et al saw how Buck's decision turned out and decided right then and there to do the opposite, come what may.

[Tycho Brahe]

The Chris Davis situation goes against every tenet of "freakonomics", which would dictate a logical, statistically-based use of an asset.

Playing him just because you're paying him is idiotic. You're paying him EITHER WAY. You're stuck. A smarter way is to ignore what you're paying him--which is out of your control, anyway--and play him according to his talents, not his salary.

Trumbo or Mancini should be the DH, and Davis used in a utility role: maybe 1B when we need his glove, as a pinch hitter, as a sub for injured players, or teach him how to play outfield, etc. It might be a small role (how often do you need a defensive sub at first?) but at least you're maximizing use of your 8 best position players. Does anyone think he gets his mojo back? I sure don't.

Playing Chris Davis this season was an emotional decision, not an intellectual one. And as long as the O's make emotional decisions at the expense of intellectual ones, they'll probably stink. Truth be told, the best decision would be to release him and eat the salary  (you can probably get an adequate replacement for a fraction of what you pay him), but I don't think the O's have the stones to do that.

 

[ChosenOne21]

I don't think bringing Ubaldo in was a mistake. I think leaving him in after putting men on first and second was. At the rate our offense was performing, that game looked like it was going to go for a long time. Ubaldo had come out of the pen a couple times earlier in the season and turned in 3 or 4 scoreless innings. I think that was what Buck was hoping for when he brought him out there. That said, when it was clear Ubaldo wasn't going to shut down the Jays, I think you have to go to Britton and pray your offense can produce something in the top half
 

So I guess I agree he should have used Britton, but I don't think he was wrong to try to get something out of Ubaldo

[foxfield]

9 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

I don't think bringing Ubaldo in was a mistake. I think leaving him in after putting men on first and second was. At the rate our offense was performing, that game looked like it was going to go for a long time. Ubaldo had come out of the pen a couple times earlier in the season and turned in 3 or 4 scoreless innings. I think that was what Buck was hoping for when he brought him out there. That said, when it was clear Ubaldo wasn't going to shut down the Jays, I think you have to go to Britton and pray your offense can produce something in the top half
 

So I guess I agree he should have used Britton, but I don't think he was wrong to try to get something out of Ubaldo

I think this is exactly what Buck was doing.  As I mentioned above, he was rolling the dice and just trying to hold on.  I honestly had no problem in the 11th coming with Ubaldo, but with two on he rolled once too often and that was it.  And forever we look back at a game where our best reliever was not used.  

I guess it is pointless in hind site, but IF Ubaldo had gotten out of it and lasted 2 or 3 innings and some how the Orioles scratched across a run....Britton coming into the 13th would have seemed almost inhumanely brilliant.  Alas, as Buck and every single one of us knew, Ubaldo was playing with fire...and well, gasoline