Congratulations, Moose!

[TonySoprano]

10 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yes, I think Yankee fans would feel slighted.    But not nearly as slighted as Orioles fans would feel.   O’s fans really resent the Yankees, whereas Yankee fans don’t really give the Orioles a second thought.  

I think with Rivera making history with 100% and probably next year for Captain O-ver-rated, they'd get over the "slight" pretty easy.  But since way deep down I'm a nice guy, here's a crying towel for them

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yes, I think Yankee fans would feel slighted.    But not nearly as slighted as Orioles fans would feel.   O’s fans really resent the Yankees, whereas Yankee fans don’t really give the Orioles a second thought.  

And this way he avoids making anyone happy.

[OFFNY]

47 minutes ago, Frobby said:

 

Yes, I think that Yankee fans would feel slighted. But not nearly as slighted as Orioles fans would feel. O’s fans really resent the Yankees, whereas Yankee fans don’t really give the Orioles a second thought.  

 

 

 

41 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

 

And this way, he avoids making anyone happy.

 

o

 

ALMOST everyone ........ Tony OH is happy about the blank cap that will be used for Mussina's Hall-of-Fame plaque. )  

 

o

[NashLumber]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Yes, I think Yankee fans would feel slighted.    But not nearly as slighted as Orioles fans would feel.   O’s fans really resent the Yankees, whereas Yankee fans don’t really give the Orioles a second thought.  

It would have been a nice thing for the O’s fans in a down era, and generate some Cooperstown trips by fans supporting  his induction. I was considering going (I went when Cal was inducted). But now, I’m not going to sit in the sun awash in Yankee idol worship. I get enough of that at Camden Yards. 

[DrungoHazewood]

15 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

And this way he avoids making anyone happy.

Actually I'm pretty happy.  I wasn't really looking to Mike Mussina's hat to bring joy to my life.

[Tony-OH]

19 hours ago, TonySoprano said:

Got your vote in though, minutes ago. 

Like Frank Robinson who first played for the Reds?  Murray for the Dodgers?
Drafted, developed, by the Orioles, 10 years in the uniform.   Agree to disagree who qualifies as an Oriole.'

 

Clearly you missed my point because you are trying to make some point of your own instead of just disagreeing.

[Tony-OH]

19 hours ago, Frobby said:

I’ve never been in favor of adding him to monument park.    All those icons were major contributors to an Orioles World Series winner.   I’m a huge Mussina fan, thrilled that he got into the Hall of Fame, but that’s not enough to get a statue.  

They were all part of World Series teams, something Mussina was never a part of even in New York. I like to call that the Mussina effect  . Seriously though, all of those guys are guys that when you think of them you think of them as Orioles. People outside of the organization consider those guys Orioles. They consider themselves Orioles, even in cases like Frank and Eddie where they played significant time outside of the organization.

Mussina left as the only drafted and developed Orioles who starred with the Orioles to leave via free agency and sign with the Yankees.. He stayed eight years with his new organization and pitched in more playoff games with New York than with the Orioles. 

Yes, he was drafted and developed by the Orioles and went to All-Star games with the Orioles, but he shunned them for another organization (Let's not forget at the end he was offered as much to stay with the Orioles as the Yankees), unlike both Eddie and Frank who were traded away by the organization (especially dumb trading Eddie). 

Whether I like Mussina or not, at the end of the day, I don't think players who chooses to leave your organization and join a division rival in the prime of their careers should ever be known as Orioles in the HoF and especially not in monument park with our true Orioles legends.

Mussina choose money over a chance of leaving a legacy. That means he should never have that legacy in Baltimore. The cap he choose is perfect for him.

Saying all that, he was a very good pitcher over his career and from a pure baseball perspective, he was a borderline HoFer for me who never won a World Series or Cy Young. I'm estatic though that he won't be wearing an Orioles cap on his plaque. 

 

[TonySoprano]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Clearly you missed my point because you are trying to make some point of your own instead of just disagreeing.

You equated him to players we acquired in free agency.  I don't see the point of "just diagreeing" without giving reasons to do so.  Eddie Murray was with the Orioles about 12 1/2 years, and he also spent 8 1/2 elsewhere.  Eddie was NOT nearly broken-hearted about leaving, citing differences with ownership.  That sounds like Mussina's story.  Ed-die is an Oriole, but Mussina isn't?  The World Series is the distinction?

Quote

First baseman Eddie Murray, the Baltimore Orioles' biggest star for almost a decade, has asked to be traded, sources said today.

Murray's request came in a meeting with Orioles General Manager Hank Peters Friday and apparently stunned the team's management, according to sources.

While refusing to comment, neither Peters nor Murray would deny that a trade had been requested.

- Richard Justice, Washington Post, August 25, 1986.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1986/08/25/murray-reportedly-wants-to-be-traded/24a9f9bd-693b-4d49-bb02-8c17dcb37396/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.58778ab060f4
 

Quote

Almost 2 1/2 years after he originally asked the Baltimore Orioles to trade him, Eddie Murray may be close to getting his wish.

Although the deal is complicated and may need a few more days to complete, the Orioles apparently are close to swapping their moody superstar to the Los Angeles Dodgers for a package of three or four players, most of them minor leaguers.

- Richard Justice, Washington Post, Decembert 1, 1988.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1988/12/01/orioles-trade-of-murray-to-dodgers-seen-close/700b86e2-79bf-4e2c-8e23-1f3d6ec8b2c2/?utm_term=.bdea192c42ff


 I don't celebrate the blank cap decision.   Not. One. Bit.  As we've discussed elsewhere, who knows how long it will take for another player to have an Orioles cap on his plaque.

Be that as it may...

Your sentiments on Mussina are different than mine, and that has been established long ago, and that's not going to change.  

51 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

They were all part of World Series teams, something Mussina was never a part of even in New York. I like to call that the Mussina effect  . Seriously though, all of those guys are guys that when you think of them you think of them as Orioles. People outside of the organization consider those guys Orioles. They consider themselves Orioles, even in cases like Frank and Eddie where they played significant time outside of the organization.

Mussina left as the only drafted and developed Orioles who starred with the Orioles to leave via free agency and sign with the Yankees.. He stayed eight years with his new organization and pitched in more playoff games with New York than with the Orioles. 

Yes, he was drafted and developed by the Orioles and went to All-Star games with the Orioles, but he shunned them for another organization (Let's not forget at the end he was offered as much to stay with the Orioles as the Yankees), unlike both Eddie and Frank who were traded away by the organization (especially dumb trading Eddie). 

Whether I like Mussina or not, at the end of the day, I don't think players who chooses to leave your organization and join a division rival in the prime of their careers should ever be known as Orioles in the HoF and especially not in monument park with our true Orioles legends.

Mussina choose money over a chance of leaving a legacy. That means he should never have that legacy in Baltimore. The cap he choose is perfect for him.

Saying all that, he was a very good pitcher over his career and from a pure baseball perspective, he was a borderline HoFer for me who never won a World Series or Cy Young. I'm estatic though that he won't be wearing an Orioles cap on his plaque. 

 

Another discussion that's been had quite a bit.  Wren had agreed to terms with Mussina's agent on an extension.  Angelos balked, and ordered a fire sale the next season.  What legacy was Mussina going to have staying on that team?  "He was offered as much to stay with the Orioles as the Yankees?"  That's simply not true.

[Frobby]

31 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

You equated him to players we acquired in free agency.  I don't see the point of "just diagreeing" without giving reasons to do so.  Eddie Murray was with the Orioles about 12 1/2 years, and he also spent 8 1/2 elsewhere.  Eddie was NOT nearly broken-hearted about leaving, citing differences with ownership.  That sounds like Mussina's story.  Ed-die is an Oriole, but Mussina isn't?  One singular World Series is the distinction?

 I don't celebrate the blank cap decision.   Not. One. Bit.  As we've discussed elsewhere, who knows how long it will take for another player to have an Orioles cap on his plaque.

Be that as it may...

Your sentiments on Mussina are different than mine, and that has been established long ago, and that's not going to change.  

Another discussion that's been had quite a bit.  Wren had agreed to terms with Mussina's agent on an extension.  Angelos balked, and ordered a fire sale.  What legacy was Mussina going to have staying on that team?  "He was offered as much to stay with the Orioles as the Yankees?"  That's simply not true.

Moose got considerably more from the Yankees than he was ever offered by the Orioles.    As to Wren, he hadn’t quite agreed with Mussina’s agent, but they had discussed parameters in the summer of ‘99 and Angelos balked.    There’s a pretty good account of it here:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/2000/12/01/mussina-joins-yankees/e630f311-c63e-4bf4-8464-df1947d9eabb/?utm_term=.a5298ac5d075

The fire sale came about a year later, while Syd Thrift was in charge.  

[TonySoprano]

18 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Moose got considerably more from the Yankees than he was ever offered by the Orioles.    As to Wren, he hadn’t quite agreed with Mussina’s agent, but they had discussed parameters in the summer of ‘99 and Angelos balked.    There’s a pretty good account of it here:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/2000/12/01/mussina-joins-yankees/e630f311-c63e-4bf4-8464-df1947d9eabb/?utm_term=.a5298ac5d075

The fire sale came about a year later, while Syd Thrift was in charge.  

The fire sale, and, in particular, the trade of his friend BJ Surhoff really angered Mussina.  I posted this about four years ago (and probably a few times before then also  ).  Here it is yet again from the Washington Post, April 18, 2000.  Read the first paragraph in particular.

Quote

The Baltimore Orioles' current contract offer to pitcher Mike Mussina of $60 million over five years apparently would have completed the deal had the team offered it to him last summer, Mussina said.

"Yeah, I would say [the Orioles' current offer] probably would have gotten it done" last summer, said Mussina, whose current contract expires at the end of this season.

In January, the Orioles opened with an offer of $42.5 million over five years, later increasing it to $50 million. Under the current offer of $60 million, $10 million would be deferred. However, Mussina's price tag has risen steadily the closer he gets to free agency. He now is believed to be seeking a contract worth about $15 million annually over five or six years. There has been no movement in negotiations in at least two weeks.

According to team and league sources, agent Arn Tellem and then-Orioles general manager Frank Wren last summer discussed the parameters of an extension for Mussina. The numbers used by Tellem then to outline Mussina's asking price were roughly the same as the Orioles' current offer, the sources said.

Wren made the proposal to Orioles majority owner Peter Angelos with the recommendation that the team get a deal done immediately, according to sources. But the Orioles made no firm offer until January, at which time Mussina was within a year of free agency and increasingly inclined to wait.

Wren was fired in November and is in arbitration with the team over the remainder of his contract; he declined to comment on the Mussina negotiations. Wren now is the Atlanta Braves' assistant general manager. Angelos did not return phone calls today.

Mussina's current contract, which was negotiated between Angelos and Mussina directly, was signed in May 1997 and pays Mussina $20.45 million over three years. It was immediately criticized by the players' union as being undervalued.

At the time, Mussina was interested in signing for five years, but was told the Orioles would not go longer than three. However, one year later, the Orioles signed pitcher Scott Erickson to a five-year extension.

"I thought it would be logical at that point for them to come to me again," Mussina said, "so they could lock up both of us" for five years.