Jump to content

I really want to keep Villar (Update: Traded to Marlins for LHS Easton Lucas)


AceKing

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, weams said:

But never 7. Right. And there is the rub. The Orioles or anyone the Orioles trade him to will have to pay him close to seven million through arbitration.  So he'll be a non tender. 

Weams, I’m usually with you 98% of the time. This is that 2%.  

Villar isn’t going to get $7 million in arb. His $4.825 salary could go as high as doubled, $9.65 million. Still at that price, it’s not a bad 1 year deal. 

The whole no team wanted him at the trade deadline doesn’t matter come offseason time. 20+ teams will think they have a shot at the playoffs versus the 8-10 around the deadline. This trade deadline season was one of the weirdest in recent history. There wasn’t a real need for middle infielders. Teams chose to not go overboard with stocking their teams for playoff runs, and to hold onto pretty much all their prospects. 

I’m fine with bringing Villar back just on the fact alone that he helps everyone else slot into a comfortable spot in the lineup. His speed and being on base, has to be helping Mancini a bit. It’s a trickle down effect. 

Plus we have zero options at SS next year. Watch a guy like Jose Isglesias bag a 3/27 deal.  Villar would be in that ballpark. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Weams, I’m usually with you 98% of the time. This is that 2%.  

Villar isn’t going to get $7 million in arb. His $4.825 salary could go as high as doubled, $9.65 million. Still at that price, it’s not a bad 1 year deal. 

The whole no team wanted him at the trade deadline doesn’t matter come offseason time. 20+ teams will think they have a shot at the playoffs versus the 8-10 around the deadline. This trade deadline season was one of the weirdest in recent history. There wasn’t a real need for middle infielders. Teams chose to not go overboard with stocking their teams for playoff runs, and to hold onto pretty much all their prospects. 

I’m fine with bringing Villar back just on the fact alone that he helps everyone else slot into a comfortable spot in the lineup. His speed and being on base, has to be helping Mancini a bit. It’s a trickle down effect. 

Plus we have zero options at SS next year. Watch a guy like Jose Isglesias bag a 3/27 deal.  Villar would be in that ballpark. 

Very good post. I'm not sure I am convinced, but I'm moved let's say. You have facts and equivalencies to defend your thoughts. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Frobby said:

Why do you say this?    He’s having a good year and easily could start on many playoff teams.    Among qualifying 2B, he’s 10th in wOBA, 9th in wRC+, 7th in fWAR.     

I truly don’t understand the lack of respect for Villar by some posters. He’s not an all star, but he’s a solid player having a good season.  

He is careless and sloppy. It is impossible to fix careless and sloppy(I think there’s also been knocks about him hustling, but I discount those.) But you cannot fix careless. The Astros got rid of him when they got good, and the Brewers got rid of him when they got good. He is a player for bad teams and each good team that wants a shortstop or second baseman is going to get a better one. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Philip said:

He is careless and sloppy. It is impossible to fix careless and sloppy(I think there’s also been knocks about him hustling, but I discount those.) But you cannot fix careless. The Astros got rid of him when they got good, and the Brewers got rid of him when they got good. He is a player for bad teams and each good team that wants a shortstop or second baseman is going to get a better one. 

I don’t think he’s careless. He’s aggressive, but he does have that “cool” attitude that whenever a guy makes a mistake, people will point that out. SS is kind of a stretch for him. We’re a last place team, they’ve asked him to be aggressive on the bases. 

People say the homer/strikeout stuff is boring. Then we get a guy that puts pressure on defense and he’s careless. Can’t have it both ways. The station to station stuff is lame, and really for good teams only. Why stand at a base when Davis, Martin, etc..., are coming up behind you?

I’ll take the 35+ steals he’s on pace for. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I don’t think he’s careless. He’s aggressive, but he does have that “cool” attitude that whenever a guy makes a mistake, people will point that out. SS is kind of a stretch for him. We’re a last place team, they’ve asked him to be aggressive on the bases. 

People say the homer/strikeout stuff is boring. Then we get a guy that puts pressure on defense and he’s careless. Can’t have it both ways. The station to station stuff is lame, and really for good teams only. Why stand at a base when Davis, Martin, etc..., are coming up behind you?

I’ll take the 35+ steals he’s on pace for. 

Villar is careless. His baserunning mistakes are not the result of being aggressive, because being aggressive involves picking your spots carefully and not just running whenever you feel like it. Overall he’s been successful, But you can never rest with him because you never know when the next tootblan is coming.

I think he has the highest WAR on the team, despite a -5.0 dWAR.  But I think that’s more because the rest of the team is so awful.

I don’t mind if the team decides to keep him, and they might very well, but my feeling is that they won’t. Cheaper second basemen will be available.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Sessh said:

I think it should also be pointed out that Villar seems to have cleaned up his game with regard to making mistakes on the bases. Maybe I missed some bad plays, but it's been awhile since he's made big mistakes on the bases. His throwing accuracy may be his worst area defensively, but he's certainly athletic enough.

His reputation for making mistakes on the bases is greatly overstated.    The fact is, despite a few mistakes here and there, he’s a plus baserunner.  BB-ref has him at +5 baserunning runs, BP has him at +4.5, 7th best in all MLB.  https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=2879557

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

His reputation for making mistakes on the bases is greatly overstated.    The fact is, despite a few mistakes here and there, he’s a plus baserunner.  BB-ref has him at +5 baserunning runs, BP has him at +4.5, 7th best in all MLB.  https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=2879557

Fans tend to value baserunners who're never thrown out.  Baserunners who're never thrown out are probably so conservative that they're costing the team runs.  Same thing applies to third base coaches; fans invariably think the break-even-point is never getting thrown out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Philip said:

He is careless and sloppy. It is impossible to fix careless and sloppy(I think there’s also been knocks about him hustling, but I discount those.) But you cannot fix careless. The Astros got rid of him when they got good, and the Brewers got rid of him when they got good. He is a player for bad teams and each good team that wants a shortstop or second baseman is going to get a better one. 

The Astros got rid of him when they got better options (Altuve, Correa, and Bregman). The Brewers got rid of him when they got (what they thought were) better options (Kiura, Moustakas, Schoop). He should have value to a team that does not have better options.

He is up to 2.5 WAR now (fWAR has him 2.8), well ahead of Mancini. He should end up around 3 WAR. That is building off 1.3 WAR in 209 AB's for the O's last year. That is a very solid player.

As far as the "careless and sloppy" rap, I really don't get where this is coming from. I feel like I must be watching a different player. I see a guy who brings the speed game, plays hard, and always has a positive attitude despite playing on a terrible team. I have never seen him with his head down. With 7 CS, he has an 80% success rate, above the break-even point. Yes, he is prone to errors and is more of a SS than a 2B, and his OBP is lower than you would want for his profile. Still a good player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Aristotelian said:

The Astros got rid of him when they got better options (Altuve, Correa, and Bregman). The Brewers got rid of him when they got (what they thought were) better options (Kiura, Moustakas, Schoop). He should have value to a team that does not have better options.

He is up to 2.5 WAR now (fWAR has him 2.8), well ahead of Mancini. He should end up around 3 WAR. That is building off 1.3 WAR in 209 AB's for the O's last year. That is a very solid player.

As far as the "careless and sloppy" rap, I really don't get where this is coming from. I feel like I must be watching a different player. I see a guy who brings the speed game, plays hard, and always has a positive attitude despite playing on a terrible team. I have never seen him with his head down. With 7 CS, he has an 80% success rate, above the break-even point. Yes, he is prone to errors and is more of a SS than a 2B, and his OBP is lower than you would want for his profile. Still a good player.

The Brewers were actively shopping him.  I think it is fair to say that they wanted him gone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

The Astros got rid of him when they got better options (Altuve, Correa, and Bregman). The Brewers got rid of him when they got (what they thought were) better options (Kiura, Moustakas, Schoop). He should have value to a team that does not have better options.

He is up to 2.5 WAR now (fWAR has him 2.8), well ahead of Mancini. He should end up around 3 WAR. That is building off 1.3 WAR in 209 AB's for the O's last year. That is a very solid player.

As far as the "careless and sloppy" rap, I really don't get where this is coming from. I feel like I must be watching a different player. I see a guy who brings the speed game, plays hard, and always has a positive attitude despite playing on a terrible team. I have never seen him with his head down. With 7 CS, he has an 80% success rate, above the break-even point. Yes, he is prone to errors and is more of a SS than a 2B, and his OBP is lower than you would want for his profile. Still a good player.

It probably speaks volumes that the Brewers viewed Schoop as a better option. It's not like he lit the world on fire last year. I also feel like the Brewer's were trying to trade Villar for like three years straight so it would predate even Moustakas. I'm not sure what he did, but he most definitely pissed in someone important's cheerios when he was in Milwaukee. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Aristotelian said:

The Astros got rid of him when they got better options (Altuve, Correa, and Bregman). The Brewers got rid of him when they got (what they thought were) better options (Kiura, Moustakas, Schoop). He should have value to a team that does not have better options.

He is up to 2.5 WAR now (fWAR has him 2.8), well ahead of Mancini. He should end up around 3 WAR. That is building off 1.3 WAR in 209 AB's for the O's last year. That is a very solid player.

As far as the "careless and sloppy" rap, I really don't get where this is coming from. I feel like I must be watching a different player. I see a guy who brings the speed game, plays hard, and always has a positive attitude despite playing on a terrible team. I have never seen him with his head down. With 7 CS, he has an 80% success rate, above the break-even point. Yes, he is prone to errors and is more of a SS than a 2B, and his OBP is lower than you would want for his profile. Still a good player.

I think some of Villard's mistakes on the bases have come from his aggressiveness, and some have been just dumb baseball (killing a rally by running into Devers as he attempted to field a ground ball, for instance).

Villard is a good player, one of the most productive on the team, and at 28 (this year) he should be in his prime. If the Orioles don't tender or sign him, it's a virtual certainty that he'll be replaced by someone not as productive (though maybe better defensively) at a cost somewhere around the MLB minimum salary of $550,000 plus the annual increase. So the question is whether it's worth an additional $3 million, or $4 million, or whatever it would take to sign Villard for 2020, to get his added value at bat and on the bases.

The Elias Plan, as I understand it, says that the answer is no. Unless a player looks like a guy who will be part of the next contending team -- whenever that is now targeted to be -- the goal is to cut payroll. Since it doesn't look like Villard will be around that long and there are doubts as to whether he'd be a desirable guy to have on a team built to contend, there's no reason to add payroll in order to get his help in winning a few games over the next year or two. Maybe he'd be worth it at $1.5 million or so, but signing him that cheap seems awfully unlikely. That's what the Plan (again, as I understand it) calls for.

You can question, as I have on this board, whether it makes sense for the Orioles to spend a little more money on the 2020 MLB payroll in an attempt to put a team on the field next season that wins a few more games than the 2018 and 2019 embarrassments. Because Villar offers some excitement and would bring a little continuity to a high-turnover team, I think Villar at $3-$5 million would probably be a good place to spend that money, though I'd want to see what else is out there for IF help. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Villar has gotten his AVG up to .274 with a .350 OBP. That is really starting to get respectable for a guy hitting mostly lead off. He has and 893 OPS and 49/133 XBH/hits. And 27/35 steals.

Plus he should finish with his most HR (19) , and statistically his career best season.

Id be happy to see us keep him. I’ve mentioned a 2-3 year deal at 5 million or so.

mayb 5 mil, 5.5 million, and 6 million. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



  • Posts

    • The same thing was happening was MacDonald was the DC and when Wink was the DC, that makes me put most of the blame on Harbaugh 
    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...