MLB Network: Belanger. The best Shortstop

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, Beef Supreme said:

Belanger had EIGHT Gold Gloves. A few more than you are giving him credit for, obviously.

And if you don't think that his coverage on grounders deep in the hole at Short and uncoiling gymnastic across and over the body strikes to first base to consistently throw out runners was "not flashy," you live on a different planet from the rest of baseball fans who watched him.

Everything’s relative.    Belanger was incredibly smooth, always in the right place, and could get a strong throw off incredibly quickly. He rarely laid out for a ball and scrambled to his feet the way Ozzie Smith and the great defensive shortstops who followed did.   I haven’t watched the film yet, but I’m hoping they have some good footage of vintage Belanger.   

[Frobby]

8 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

The man was once worth 4.9 dWAR in a season. He was special. I wish I could have watched him in his prime. I only remember the guy at the end of career, and barely at that.

So set your DVR for 11 am Saturday on MLB Network, and hopefully you’ll see some of what you missed.   

[Chuck A]

Belanger was excellent at short.  I don't remember him having a clean uni by the end of any game.  Erratic at the plate but he could execute the hit and run, he had smart speed on the bases, and really rooted for him.  You could only admire the way he played the game.  Unfortunately that enthusiasm, no professionalism, is gone for the most part.

[DrungoHazewood]

9 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Wagner.

Pro: 131 rWAR, eight batting titles led the league multiple times in double, triples, RBI, steals, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+ TB.  Three top 10 MVP appearances despite the MVP award not being invented until he was in his late 30s.

Con: Debuted in 1897 in a 12-team segregated league with no affiliated minors, zero data and analysis, playing on fields that look like something from the county fair against competition that averaged about 5' 8" and 160 lbs.  When he was young relief pitching still sometimes involved bringing in the RFer to pitch when the starter had given up 12 runs because the RFer was the 5th-best pitcher on the roster.

[DrungoHazewood]

9 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

The man was once worth 4.9 dWAR in a season. He was special. I wish I could have watched him in his prime. I only remember the guy at the end of career, and barely at that.

I was only old enough to be aware of baseball the last three years he was in Baltimore, so I have no real memories of him.  Just stories and numbers.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Pro: 131 rWAR, eight batting titles led the league multiple times in double, triples, RBI, steals, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+ TB.  Three top 10 MVP appearances despite the MVP award not being invented until he was in his late 30s.

Con: Debuted in 1897 in a 12-team segregated league with no affiliated minors, zero data and analysis, playing on fields that look like something from the county fair against competition that averaged about 5' 8" and 160 lbs.  When he was young relief pitching still sometimes involved bringing in the RFer to pitch when the starter had given up 12 runs because the RFer was the 5th-best pitcher on the roster.

Cal played forty years ago.  What kind of numbers would Tatis out up in 1982?

[DrungoHazewood]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Cal played forty years ago.  What kind of numbers would Tatis out up in 1982?

Give him a bit for the level of competition, but take away something because Charlie Lau is teaching him to take a big stride and spray line drives instead of maximizing launch angle.

[Frobby]

11 hours ago, SteveA said:

My programming grid shows Quick Pitch in that time slot.

I'll be out of town.   I set that hour to record.

Mine too.    But I set my DVR on manual for that hour.    

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Give him a bit for the level of competition, but take away something because Charlie Lau is teaching him to take a big stride and spray line drives instead of maximizing launch angle.

You can always make a case that the greatest players of the current generation are the best overall.  

 

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Everything’s relative.    Belanger was incredibly smooth, always in the right place, and could get a strong throw off incredibly quickly. He rarely laid out for a ball and scrambled to his feet the way Ozzie Smith and the great defensive shortstops who followed did.   I haven’t watched the film yet, but I’m hoping they have some good footage of vintage Belanger.   

I'm hoping for more footage, too.  I've never really seen much to begin with.  There has to be some out there.  Obviously televised baseball wasn't huge back then but there's gotta be some clips somewhere.

On a similar note, my knowledge of Brooks' defensive prowess is limited to highlights of the 1970 World Series.

[DrungoHazewood]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

You can always make a case that the greatest players of the current generation are the best overall. 

And I do, all the time.  But the slope of history isn't so steep that this generation is clearly and obviously superior to the last.  It's more subtle than that.  If that was true Nelson Cruz would need some pretty magical potions to just stay in the league at 40.

Usain Bolt beat the 1999 100m record by 0.2 seconds, which is huge, but nobody has touched that in the decade since.  From 1968-88 it only moved 0.1 seconds.  Baseball is different with a mix of skills, but nevertheless progress is usually incremental and only noticeable over decades.

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm hoping for more footage, too.  I've never really seen much to begin with.  There has to be some out there.  Obviously televised baseball wasn't huge back then but there's gotta be some clips somewhere.

On a similar note, my knowledge of Brooks' defensive prowess is limited to highlights of the 1970 World Series.

I saw Brooks make a diving catch at third in the 1984 (or was it '85?) Cracker Jack Oldtimers game at RFK.  That's my only first-hand knowledge of his skills.

[Frobby]

22 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm hoping for more footage, too.  I've never really seen much to begin with.  There has to be some out there.  Obviously televised baseball wasn't huge back then but there's gotta be some clips somewhere.

On a similar note, my knowledge of Brooks' defensive prowess is limited to highlights of the 1970 World Series.

It is a shame that there isn’t more video footage from that era.   Brooks made so many jaw-dropping plays.    Belanger was more subtle.   He had the smoothest, most elegant throwing motion.   I really hope they dig deep for some clips in this documentary.   

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

It is a shame that there isn’t more video footage from that era.   Brooks made so many jaw-dropping plays.    Belanger was more subtle.   He had the smoothest, most elegant throwing motion.   I really hope they dig deep for some clips in this documentary.   

I just take the ESPN approach on that: If it happened before September 7, 1979, did it really happen?  Probably not, so we can ignore it.

(Coincidentally, I attended my first Orioles game eight days after ESPN went live.)

[weams]

3 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

 If that was true Nelson Cruz would need some pretty magical potions to just stay in the league at 40.

 

The BioGenesis Potions were very magical. Micro dosed. Undetectable.