The second guessing Hyde thread.

[banks703]

7 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

Bringing in Cano for the 7th was 100% about game planning for Aaron Judge. If the bottom of the order was coming up, Hyde almost certainly would have given the 7th to Baker. I don't know what this "arrogance" is you're talking about. Walking Judge intentionally to face Rizzo as the winning run with the RF porch 300 feet away would be pretty arrogant towards Rizzo, wouldn't it?

I think I've repeated myself twice that I wouldn't IBB Judge. Only that you don't throw him anything anywhere near the zone, especially 0-2. If he doesn't chase and earns a walk, then so be it. 

 

And yes I take my chances with Rizzo over Judge 100 out of 100 times. No offense to Rizzo but he's not Aaron Judge and there isn't an (almost) decade long history of Rizzo killing the Orioles. 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by banks703

[Moshagge3]

2 minutes ago, Otter said:

But it's also part of Adley's job to understand when a pitcher isn't able to command a certain pitch, and adjust his pitch calling appropriately.  Like I said, they both share blame.  

I have to think there's been a conversation at levels above Adley and even above Hyde/Holt about Felix's pitch metrics. Maybe the Orioles' brain trust thinks that Felix has to keep trying to throw his splitter in game situations early on so he can trust it later in the year.

[Aristotelian]

1 minute ago, banks703 said:

I think I've repeated myself twice that I wouldn't IBB Judge. Only that you don't throw him anything anywhere near the zone, especially 0-2. If he doesn't chase and earns a walk, then so be it. 

 

 

Right, that's what everyone including Bautista was trying to do, only he messed up and threw a bad pitch. 

[Moshagge3]

1 minute ago, banks703 said:

I think I've repeated myself twice that I wouldn't IBB Judge. Only that you don't throw him anything anywhere near the zone, especially 0-2. If he doesn't chase and earns a walk, then so be it. 

 

 

But everyone understands this, both on this board and in the Orioles dugout. The pitch was not where it was supposed to be. Nobody was under any illusions about who was up and what he is capable of doing.

[glenn__davis]

One other thing that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet (apologies if it was)....

A little on the cool side again last night in NYY.  Not cold, but not exactly warm either.  It seems to me that Felix has much better command when it's warmer out.  No conclusions yet, just something to consider moving forward.

[glenn__davis]

5 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

But everyone understands this, both on this board and in the Orioles dugout. The pitch was not where it was supposed to be. Nobody was under any illusions about who was up and what he is capable of doing.

Right.  In no universe was Felix thinking "Let me hang a splitter right down the middle and see what he does with it."

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

As a professional baseball player Bautista should understand this himself. Unless Adley is expected to have magic brain powers I don't see how he is supposed to communicate this unless you do a mound visit every pitch. 

I mean, obviously it wasn’t his intention to throw a belt-high pitch there.  He was trying to throw a pitch that started at the knees and ends up at the ankles.  But he hadn’t come close to doing that when he was pitching to Torres and tried it twice.  He’s been missing way up with that pitch a lot lately.  Often, he gets away with it because the hitter is geared up for 102.   That’s what happened with Torres.  But Judge is too good a hitter and that was too bad a pitch.  To me, I understand that the good splitter is a very important part of Bautista’s repertoire.   But you can’t throw a splitter to judge 0-2 unless you’re sure you can land it where no serious damage can be done.  If you’re not sure, don’t throw it.  Make Judge beat 100 mph up.  

[banks703]

31 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I mean, obviously it wasn’t his intention to throw a belt-high pitch there.  He was trying to throw a pitch that started at the knees and ends up at the ankles.  But he hadn’t come close to doing that when he was pitching to Torres and tried it twice.  He’s been missing way up with that pitch a lot lately.  Often, he gets away with it because the hitter is geared up for 102.   That’s what happened with Torres.  But Judge is too good a hitter and that was too bad a pitch.  To me, I understand that the good splitter is a very important part of Bautista’s repertoire.   But you can’t throw a splitter to judge 0-2 unless you’re sure you can land it where no serious damage can be done.  If you’re not sure, don’t throw it.  Make Judge beat 100 mph up.  

This

 

I don't like throwing anything in Judge's massive swing zone but if you're going to get beat, make him beat you on what got you to 0-2. 

 

I get that everyone (including Felix) is acknowledging that he missed his pitch but I can't understand why they were even attacking Judge to begin with given his absurd success against the O's. It's bottom 9, they're down a run.. make Judge chase. If he doesn't chase, take your chances with Rizzo. 100 times out of 100 I'll choose to take on Rizzo over Judge. His dominance of the O's is Bonds-like. Remember way back in 1998 when (get a load of this) Buck Showalter ordered Gregg Olsen to walk Barry Bonds with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th, leading 8-6? 

 

The D-Backs won that game 8-7. 

 

 

[HandsomeQuack]

1 minute ago, banks703 said:

I get that everyone (including Felix) is acknowledging that he missed his pitch but I can't understand why they were even attacking Judge to begin with given his absurd success against the O's. It's bottom 9, they're down a run.. make Judge chase. If he doesn't chase, take your chances with Rizzo. 100 times out of 100 I'll choose to take on Rizzo over Judge.

They weren't attacking him, Baustista's control with the split is just abysmal. There is a chance he will leave it there every time he throws it, even if he's trying to waste one.

You acknowledge he wasn't trying to throw a strike and then criticize him for "attacking" Judge? I don't understand, are you saying he should have been IBB'd?

[banks703]

20 minutes ago, HandsomeQuack said:

They weren't attacking him, Baustista's control with the split is just abysmal. There is a chance he will leave it there every time he throws it, even if he's trying to waste one.

You acknowledge he wasn't trying to throw a strike and then criticize him for "attacking" Judge? I don't understand, are you saying he should have been IBB'd?

He was attacking him by throwing him the first two fastballs that garnered the swing-and-misses. He was throwing cheese in Judge's swing zone. Judge just couldn't touch it. But more so, when he threw his out-pitch, yes he was still going after him. I don't know why there's any confusion of that. He said he missed his spot. Yeah, so what? They shouldn't have been going after the strikeout there which they clearly were. This is what I meant by my arrogance comment. You've got a guy up who OWNS your team for his career and just about always delivers in those situations against you. I just don't understand the arrogance of going after him there with ANYTHING that they couldn't confidently keep from contact. 

 

Everyone in the stands, Judge, the folks in the Ukraine who were watching, everyone knew that he was going to throw the splitter hunting for the K. Felix missed his spot, yeah, poor pitch execution but I don't understand why they weren't throwing four straight 100mph fastballs to the left-handed batters box or up around his eyes. You can avoid a guy without intentionally walking him. You had two strikes on him and four pitches to get him to chase but they arrogantly went after the K. I don't care if he missed his spot, that's not the point. He shouldn't have been hunting the K there. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by banks703

[Aristotelian]

21 minutes ago, banks703 said:

He was attacking him by throwing him the first two fastballs that garnered the swing-and-misses. He was throwing cheese in Judge's swing zone. Judge just couldn't touch it. But more so, when he threw his out-pitch, yes he was still going after him. I don't know why there's any confusion of that. He said he missed his spot. Yeah, so what? They shouldn't have been going after the strikeout there which they clearly were. This is what I meant by my arrogance comment. You've got a guy up who OWNS your team for his career and just about always delivers in those situations against you. I just don't understand the arrogance of going after him there with ANYTHING that they couldn't confidently keep from contact. 

 

Everyone in the stands, Judge, the folks in the Ukraine who were watching, everyone knew that he was going to throw the splitter hunting for the K. Felix missed his spot, yeah, poor pitch execution but I don't understand why they weren't throwing four straight 100mph fastballs to the left-handed batters box or up around his eyes. You can avoid a guy without intentionally walking him. You had two strikes on him and four pitches to get him to chase but they arrogantly went after the K. I don't care if he missed his spot, that's not the point. He shouldn't have been hunting the K there. 

For the umpteenth time they were trying to pitch around him. If you want to argue that it is better to pitch around him with a fastball than pitching around him with a splitter that is valid but the intended pitch was a splitter in the dirt which would fall under the category of pitching around him if it was executed properly. Palme. Bautista was not intentionally "challenging" Judge with an 0-2 splitter, he was trying to pitch around him with a different pitch than you want. Most people associate "challenging" with going FB so you are confusing everyone.

[HandsomeQuack]

22 minutes ago, banks703 said:

He was attacking him by throwing him the first two fastballs that garnered the swing-and-misses. He was throwing cheese in Judge's swing zone. Judge just couldn't touch it. But more so, when he threw his out-pitch, yes he was still going after him. I don't know why there's any confusion of that. He said he missed his spot. Yeah, so what? They shouldn't have been going after the strikeout there which they clearly were. This is what I meant by my arrogance comment. You've got a guy up who OWNS your team for his career and just about always delivers in those situations against you. I just don't understand the arrogance of going after him there with ANYTHING that they couldn't confidently keep from contact. 

 

Everyone in the stands, Judge, the folks in the Ukraine who were watching, everyone knew that he was going to throw the splitter hunting for the K. Felix missed his spot, yeah, poor pitch execution but I don't understand why they weren't throwing four straight 100mph fastballs to the left-handed batters box or up around his eyes. You can avoid a guy without intentionally walking him. You had two strikes on him and four pitches to get him to chase but they arrogantly went after the K. I don't care if he missed his spot, that's not the point. He shouldn't have been hunting the K there. 

He got ahead 0-2 and then should have IBB'd him? Or they should have thrown up the four fingers before throwing a pitch? Or they should have just pitched around him from the start of the AB and not tried to get ahead at all? Please share which of these you mean.

If Felix threw a fastball and Judge hit it out, it would be "how did they throw him a third fastball, he just got two looks at it!" Second guessing the split there is just revisionist. That's his out pitch and he very rarely gets hurt throwing it. As for everyone "knowing it was coming," Bautista only regularly throws two pitches -- it could be me as the hitter and I would have a fair enough chance at guessing what is coming. He (and almost every other late-inning reliever) has his share of successes and failures despite that.

And I don't care if the hitter was Barry Bonds -- you don't want to put the tying run on base and bring the GW run to the plate. You want to get Judge out. Besides, Felix strikes a lot of guys out and it's not like Judge is Wade Boggs when it comes to making contact.

Bautista's control is abysmal and literally any pitch he throws has a chance of ending up in the happy zone. it is what it is. A lot worse hitters than Judge could have made him pay on that pitch.

[bpilktree]

I have no problem with pitching to Judge especially if you get ahead 0-2 in the count if the first two pitches were balls then you walk him.  The count should justify the action.  I also don’t mind going splitter but for the life of me I don’t understand setting up in the middle of the plate.  I know they seem to use that strategy with Bautista a lot to keep his control better but when you are up 0-2 you should never set up in the middle. Set up on the corner and if you miss you at least make him hit it opposite field.  In the little league world series you sometimes even see them setting up outside the strike zone with 2 strikes maybe not that far but at least move out there to the corner if you are ahead 0-2.  

[banks703]

1 hour ago, HandsomeQuack said:

He got ahead 0-2 and then should have IBB'd him? Or they should have thrown up the four fingers before throwing a pitch? Or they should have just pitched around him from the start of the AB and not tried to get ahead at all? Please share which of these you mean.

If Felix threw a fastball and Judge hit it out, it would be "how did they throw him a third fastball, he just got two looks at it!" Second guessing the split there is just revisionist. That's his out pitch and he very rarely gets hurt throwing it. As for everyone "knowing it was coming," Bautista only regularly throws two pitches -- it could be me as the hitter and I would have a fair enough chance at guessing what is coming. He (and almost every other late-inning reliever) has his share of successes and failures despite that.

And I don't care if the hitter was Barry Bonds -- you don't want to put the tying run on base and bring the GW run to the plate. You want to get Judge out. Besides, Felix strikes a lot of guys out and it's not like Judge is Wade Boggs when it comes to making contact.

Bautista's control is abysmal and literally any pitch he throws has a chance of ending up in the happy zone. it is what it is. A lot worse hitters than Judge could have made him pay on that pitch.

I’m saying don’t throw anything that Judge can put bat on ball, from the first pitch. 
 

Sure, a lot of other hitters would have made him pay on that pitch but NO other hitter beats the Orioles like Aaron Judge beats the Orioles. There’s a looooooong history of him killing the O’s and they just keep giving him pitches to hit. 
 

No offense to Rizzo but he isn’t Aaron Judge. 

[HandsomeQuack]

37 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I’m saying don’t throw anything that Judge can put bat on ball, from the first pitch. 
 

Sure, a lot of other hitters would have made him pay on that pitch but NO other hitter beats the Orioles like Aaron Judge beats the Orioles. There’s a looooooong history of him killing the O’s and they just keep giving him pitches to hit. 
 

No offense to Rizzo but he isn’t Aaron Judge. 

So intentionally walk him. Got it.