Lowball history of the Orioles since 2000

[orioles119]

This may be the funniest quote ever made by an Oriole's official.

Thank goodness we have Jay Gibbons around to replace Guerrero's production in the lineup.

Hindsight is so wonderful, since Jay was coming off a 23 HR, 100 RBI season with a .277 AVG, .330 OBP and .786 OPS at the age of 26.

With those numbers, you would expect Gibbons to continue progressing, but injuries and ineffectiveness stymied his production to the point of atrocity.

Who knew that would happen to Gibbons anyway?

[TonySoprano]

I think it was very telling that the Orioles negotiated with Fern Cuza and Diego Bentz, yet he was signed by his "lead agent" Arn Tellem by the Angels.

Exactly. This tells me that Tellem and his underlings Cuza and Bentz didn't deal with us in good faith. They kept us in the game long enough for another offer to come along. One possible interpretation is that Guerrero did not ever intend to come here. He refused requests to visit the city. Once two cities with a large Hispanic population got involved, Baltimore became an afterthought. Duquette, then with the New York Mets, was afforded every professional consideration that we should have been given but weren't.

The call from the Vladimir Guerrero camp came after midnight for Orioles vice president Mike Flanagan, and it confirmed the news that had been leaking slowly throughout the baseball industry all Saturday evening.

Guerrero was turning his back on the Orioles' six-year, $78 million offer to sign with another team, agent Fernando Cuza said.

By then, Flanagan had already heard.

With a stealth maneuver, the Anaheim Angels had reached agreement with Guerrero on a contract believed to be worth $70 million over five years.

Cuza was one of at least four agents who negotiated on Guerrero's behalf. Orioles officials said they never once spoke with Arn Tellem, who brokered the deal with the Angels. Apparently, Tellem's people divided the Guerrero talks by teams, with Cuza and Diego Benz handling the Orioles. Tellem is the same agent who delivered former Orioles ace Mike Mussina, to the New York Yankees in 2000.

Source - The Sun, Jan 12, 2004

[geschinger]

Exactly. This tells me that Tellem and his underlings Cuza and Bentz didn't deal with us in good faith. They kept us in the game long enough for another offer to come along. One possible interpretation is that Guerrero did not ever intend to come here. He refused requests to visit the city. Once two cities with a large Hispanic population got involved, Baltimore became an afterthought. Duquette, then with the New York Mets, was afforded every professional consideration that we should have been given but weren't.

Bingo. This interpretation is the right one IMO. The biggest mistake the Orioles made was letting it drag out. They should of set a deadline and if he wasn't interested we should of pulled it and moved on.

[DrungoHazewood]

Hindsight is so wonderful, since Jay was coming off a 23 HR, 100 RBI season with a .277 AVG, .330 OBP and .786 OPS at the age of 26.

With those numbers, you would expect Gibbons to continue progressing, but injuries and ineffectiveness stymied his production to the point of atrocity.

Who knew that would happen to Gibbons anyway?

What exactly about Gibbons' career made you think 2005 was anything but a career season? He's been hurt a lot, and outside of 2005 he's not really progressed at all since his rookie year. His ISO hasn't gotten better, his walk rate hasn't improved. He's never been much of a defensive player, and he's just about fast enough to pinch run for Ramon Hernandez. His career OPS is 775, which is about 50 points below that of an average DH.

Players fitting that description don't age well. When you're barealy average and you're already at the far end of the defensive spectrum, when your bat slips 10% you're out of the league.

[hoosiers]

Exactly. This tells me that Tellem and his underlings Cuza and Bentz didn't deal with us in good faith. They kept us in the game long enough for another offer to come along. One possible interpretation is that Guerrero did not ever intend to come here. He refused requests to visit the city. Once two cities with a large Hispanic population got involved, Baltimore became an afterthought. Duquette, then with the New York Mets, was afforded every professional consideration that we should have been given but weren't.

I know people can interpret things many different ways, but I think this summarizes the situation pretty darn well. I find it hard to believe we were considered to have "low-balled" Vlad when we had the highest bid out there and were clearly willing to go higher to get a deal done. If I recall, NYMets tried to enter the fray with a cheap two or three year deal that was chump change compared to ours - and Vlad seemed to give that more weight than our bid.

And let's not pretend that this doesn't happen to other teams - which is what goads me about this thread. Didn't Carlos Beltran negotiate for weeks with the Astros and Mets and, before signing with the Mets, called the Yankees and asked them to make an offer at a certain price point competitive with the Mets offer?

[TGO]

What exactly about Gibbons' career made you think 2005 was anything but a career season? He's been hurt a lot, and outside of 2005 he's not really progressed at all since his rookie year. His ISO hasn't gotten better, his walk rate hasn't improved. He's never been much of a defensive player, and he's just about fast enough to pinch run for Ramon Hernandez. His career OPS is 775, which is about 50 points below that of an average DH.

Players fitting that description don't age well. When you're barealy average and you're already at the far end of the defensive spectrum, when your bat slips 10% you're out of the league.

Wrong year Drungo. Look at his 2003 stats. That is what 119 is talking about.

In 2003 he was 26 and most of us here thought he was going to keep getting better. You can't deny that. And in 2005 he did have that career year at age 28. The problem is it followed a horrendous and injury riddled 2004. Yes, there were warning signs that Gibbons would not progress like we thought he would, but he could have been better without the injuries. He was never going to be in Vlad's league but almost everyone here in 2003/04 thought he was going to be a serviceable and cheap DH/RF/1B/bench option for several years.

[8ripken2131]

Good thread Frobby.

It amazes me how many naive people there still are on this board.

The benefit of the doubt this piss poor organization is given is mind boggling to me.

This is a great thread, and I too can't believe that people are actually defending the O's. Regardless of the "facts" surrounding each of these individual deals, the bottom line is that time and time again, the O's have failed to bring in (or retain) premium talent. The lack of impact talent on this team today and over the last ten years is the reason we've lost; it's just that simple. The O's just haven't been willing to spend the money or take the chance in a trade, and I can't believe that anyone would defend them on this.

[Mark Carver]

Good thread Frobby.

It amazes me how many naive people there still are on this board.

The benefit of the doubt this piss poor organization is given is mind boggling to me.

Ahhh, the art of negotiating... or the lack there of sometimes. When it works, it's great and they are geniuses and when it don't by some standards, they are piss poor. Thankfully, they currently are looking at a player on the current roster that would be looking at 3 years @ $9m a year and regretting it.

Just offer him [Huff] 2/16-18 with a 3rd year option for 8-9 million.

I would give him until Xmas eve to sign it. If he doesn't, take the offer off the table at that point and be done with it.

Really, i have no issue going 3 years for him but it doesn't seem we have to so offer him a pay raise from last year.

In this market, if you can get him for 2/16-18, you are getting a good deal. No reason not to up our offer. They talk about how we have to overpay to get players here.

[Sports Guy]

Ahhh, the art of negotiating... or the lack there of sometimes. When it works, it's great and they are geniuses and when it don't by some standards, they are piss poor. Thankfully, they currently are looking at a player on the current roster that would be looking at 3 years @ $9m a year and regretting it.

Curious if you actually read what i said?

I said give him a TWO YEAR offer with a 3rd year OPTION.

So, that would be having him for 2 years, not 3.

[Mark Carver]

Curious if you actually read what i said?

I said give him a TWO YEAR offer with a 3rd year OPTION.

So, that would be having him for 2 years, not 3.

Yeah I did, did you... "i have no issue going 3 years for him".

Just offer him [Huff] 2/16-18 with a 3rd year option for 8-9 million.

I would give him until Xmas eve to sign it. If he doesn't, take the offer off the table at that point and be done with it.

Really, i have no issue going 3 years for him but it doesn't seem we have to so offer him a pay raise from last year.

In this market, if you can get him for 2/16-18, you are getting a good deal. No reason not to up our offer. They talk about how we have to overpay to get players here.

[TonySoprano]

I know people can interpret things many different ways, but I think this summarizes the situation pretty darn well. I find it hard to believe we were considered to have "low-balled" Vlad when we had the highest bid out there and were clearly willing to go higher to get a deal done.

It has long been my position that he wasn't coming here regardless, but our initial negotiating stance certainly didn't help matters. If you go back to one of my earlier posts, we did "lowball" Guerrero, bidding lower than the Expos. "Lowball" is a relative term as the price that Guerrero would take from the Angels is lower than what it would have taken to get him to give real, sincere consideration to Montreal or Baltimore.

[TonySoprano]

Don't forget about the lowballing of Derek Lee and Rafael Palmeiro.

Palmeiro's case was a classic. The Orioles told him that no player gets $10 million a season. Then, Angelos personally negotiates a deal for Albert Belle at $ 13 million per over 5 years, buying off on the ruse that Steinbrenner was going to get Belle.

[writehh]

"Two teams were still alive" (Mets and Angels) with the implication being the Orioles were out of the running despite their offer.

The Orioles, specifically Flanagan (Beattie was on vacation at the time) heard about the Guerrero signing from a reporter, not from Arn Tellem, who personally negotiated the deal with the Angels.

While the Expos final offer was 5 - $75 million, the Orioles strategy was to jump in initially at 5 - $65 million. The Orioles line in the sand was only one year and $ 3 million more than the Expos offer.

Source for the above - The Sun, Jan 10, 2004

TonySoprano's post is excellent. Lowball? Highball? The point is that there is a story behind each of the player's mentioned in Frobby's initial post.

Did Player A have a track record of success?

Did Player B have a risky injury?

Did Player C enter a hard or soft market?

Did the Orioles have a homegrown alternative to the player?

Did the Orioles have the financial wherewithal to make increasing the bid a prudent thing to do?

Highball? Lowball? Each players has their story. Looking at only the end result is looking out of context.

[orioles119]

What exactly about Gibbons' career made you think 2005 was anything but a career season? He's been hurt a lot, and outside of 2005 he's not really progressed at all since his rookie year. His ISO hasn't gotten better, his walk rate hasn't improved. He's never been much of a defensive player, and he's just about fast enough to pinch run for Ramon Hernandez. His career OPS is 775, which is about 50 points below that of an average DH.

Drungo... I said AT THE TIME you could have expected Gibbons to continue progressing - meaning back in the Winter of 2003, you could expect Gibbons to continue progressing. I wasn't taking the last three years and this year into account when making the observation. I didn't say anything about 2005, since he hit the 23 HRs and drove in 100 in 2003.

Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+2001 24 BAL AL  73  225   27   53  10  0  15   36   0  1  17  39  .236  .301  .480  109  108   0   0   0   4   72002 25 BAL AL 136  490   71  121  29  1  28   69   1  3  45  66  .247  .311  .482  109  236   0   4   3   2   9[b] 2003 26 BAL AL 160  625   80  173  39  2  23  100   0  1  49  89  .277  .330  .456  110  285   0   5  11   3  12[/b]2004 27 BAL AL  97  346   36   85  14  1  10   47   1  1  29  64  .246  .303  .379   74  131   1   3   0   1  112005 28 BAL AL 139  488   72  135  33  3  26   79   0  0  28  56  .277  .317  .516  123  252   0   1   3   1  152006 29 BAL AL  90  343   34   95  23  0  13   46   0  0  32  48  .277  .341  .458  106  157   0   1   2   2  122007 30 BAL AL  73  230   25   50  14  0   6   26   0  0  14  46  .217  .266  .357   64   82   0   2   1   2   4+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+7 Seasons      768 2747  345  712 162  7 121  403   2  6 214 408  .259  .315  .455  103 1251   1  16  20  15  70+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+162 Game Avg        579   73  150  34  1  26   85   0  1  45  86  .259  .315  .455  103  264   0   3   4   3  15Career High    160  625   80  173  39  3  28  100   1  3  49  89  .277  .341  .516  123  285   1   5  11   4  15

[Sports Guy]

Yeah I did, did you... "i have no issue going 3 years for him".

Saying "i have no issue with..." and actually giving him the 3 years, which you said i was doing, is a different thing.

I clearly stated 2 years.