Lowball history of the Orioles since 2000

[Frobby]

2000: Lowballed Mussina and lost him after the season

2003: Lowballed Guerrero and lost him

2004: Lowballed Delgado and lost him

2005: Lowballed Ryan and lost him after the season

2007: Lowballed Bedard and....

Talk about not learning your lesson! I'm not saying the O's would have retained/acquired all of these guys if they hadn't started off with a ridiculous lowball offer, but we sure know what the results of their tactics have been.

We'll throw 3/$19 mm at friggin' Danys Baez but we lowball the best pitcher this organization has developed in 15 years. Sheesh!

Here's an idea: lowball the mediocre players and pay the stars what they're worth!

[SilentJames]

Frobby this is really irresponsible of you.

The fact we lowballed Ryan doesn't matter he was made the RICHEST RELIEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME!

Guerrero, we gave him a very good offer. The Angels came in the 11th hour and swept him away. We did not "lowball" him. We had the highest offer on the table until the Angels came into play.

The Bedard thing. This was a story that first appeared in Toronto and was largely dismissed as gossip then. Now it resurfaces coming from an agent that is: 1) not Bedard's and 2) Has an unknown connection to the Orioles organization. that is to say we know he represents Jon Lester. His connection to the inner-workings of the Orioles organization is dubious at best right now.

Don't you think that if something like that DID happen one of our guys inside the org would have passed that info along? Don;t you think if the Orioles knew that there was no way of extending him they would be actuvely shopping him right now? According to the agent the Orioles have no intention of trading him.

You're running with gossip here.

The fact that they PAID Danys Baez that much money should be proof of an oganization shift away from such practices.

[Zaimoku]

I'm surprised at this myself. Didn't some members here go to dinner with Flanagan a while back, and Flanagan came out and said Ryan's agent told him they were going to go for the pot of gold?

Guerrero wasn't going to sign with the Orioles if he could help it. He lives with his mommy, she doesn't speak English, and there aren't enough Spanish speakers in Baltimore.

The Bedard story is still nothing but a rumor. If Bedard doesn't give them another chance to make a higher offer with MacPhail, well he can kiss my backside. He wouldn't be that interested in reupping anyway.

[Birds of B'more]

Guerrero, we gave him a very good offer. The Angels came in the 11th hour and swept him away. We did not "lowball" him. We had the highest offer on the table until the Angels came into play.

Yeah, that's how I remember it. The offer on the table to Guerrero was very much market-value at the time. Going higher would have just been bidding against ourselves, since no one else was even involved during most of the process.

The fact that they PAID Danys Baez that much money should be proof of an oganization shift away from such practices.

Not sure what you mean by "such practices." All that proves to me is that they are willing to pay way too much money for a reliever who isn't very good.

[orioles119]

Did NMS hijack your profile, Frobby?

You're wrong on Guerrero by the way...

[lovetoaster]

Guerrero wasn't going to sign with the Orioles if he could help it. He lives with his mommy, she doesn't speak English, and there aren't enough Spanish speakers in Baltimore.

Exactly, Guerrero was not going to sign here. He was not comfortable with the city and wanted somewhere with a high Spanish-speaking population. That ain't Charm City.

[nadecir]

2000: Lowballed Mussina and lost him after the season

2003: Lowballed Guerrero and lost him

2004: Lowballed Delgado and lost him

2005: Lowballed Ryan and lost him after the season

2007: Lowballed Bedard and....

Talk about not learning your lesson! I'm not saying the O's would have retained/acquired all of these guys if they hadn't started off with a ridiculous lowball offer, but we sure know what the results of their tactics have been.

We'll throw 3/$19 mm at friggin' Danys Baez but we lowball the best pitcher this organization has developed in 15 years. Sheesh!

Here's an idea: lowball the mediocre players and pay the stars what they're worth!

Frobby, you forgot about the Orioles lowballing Derrek Lee in the middle of 2003.

In 2003, the Orioles had a trade worked out with the Marlins for Derrek Lee. We went so far as to bring him to the warehouse in an attempt to negotiate an extension with Lee. The Orioles offer was too low, and Lee was traded to Chicago and subsequently signed an extension.

And in the case of BJ Ryan, we lowballed him before the 2005 season. We could have signed him to an extension for a lot less in 2003 or 2004. There were negotiations between Ryan's representatives and the Orioles well before the Blue Jays overpaid for him, and we could have locked him up earlier, but we didn't.

Like it or not, the Orioles do have a history of losing good players because of an inability to close the deal. It is a shame we didn't reach an agreement with Bedard earlier. Even if Bedard agrees to negotiate now, it is going to cost the Orioles a lot more money to extend him than it would have last year.

[ChrisP]

I can't believe folks are actually defending the O's. Spot on Frobby and great recall nadecir!

[Frobby]

Yeah' date=' that's how I remember it. The offer on the table to Guerrero was very much market-value at the time. Going higher would have just been bidding against ourselves, since no one else was even involved during most of the process.[/quote']

The initial offer was, as I recall, 5 years, $65 mm. In my opinion that was insultingly low. It was fewer years and fewer dollars per year than what Jim Thome had received the year before, even though Vlad was younger and better than Thome. It was far, far less than Vlad was worth.

Those who defend that offer do so for one of two reasons. First, they say that we were the only bidder. Well, tough. You simply don't make an initial offer that so obviously undervalues the player, no matter how little competition there is, unless you want to create competition by putting something on the table that isn't really even a converstation-starter. All it does is get the negotiation off on the wrong foot. And the O's have made this mistake time and time again.

The second defense is that Vlad wouldn't have signed here anyway. First of all, I already acknowledged in my initial post that

I'm not saying the O's would have retained/acquired all of these guys if they hadn't started off with a ridiculous lowball offer

Vlad may be an example of that. But, we'll never know. If he was inclined to go to a team with a large Spanish-speaking community, getting a lowball offer sure wasn't going to help change his mind.

[DrungoHazewood]

Frobby this is really irresponsible of you.

You're running with gossip here.

Where are the rumors and gossip about the Orioles slapping down a check in front of a star player and saying "what'll it take to put you in Orange and Black?" There aren't any. Even as the Orioles payroll declined and they had plenty of available cash in the 1998-on era they rarely won a bidding war with anyone, including with star players they have under contract and were just looking to extend. They're never proactive, they almost never lock a guy up before they have to, and that's often too late.

Contrast this with teams like the Indians, who love to take a guy 2-3 years away from free agency and get him locked up long-term to give them a good player, cost certainty, and a discount. The O's version of this is asking a player if they'll take a big hometown discount, getting laughed out of the room, then giving up. And even if half the rumors aren't true we still have a pretty strong case.

The fact that they PAID Danys Baez that much money should be proof of an oganization shift away from such practices.

No... that just proves that the Orioles have no problem spending a little bit of money, even if it's on a mediocre player. Where they almost always balk is in signing true star talent to market rate deals.

A great model for team development is to maximize the number of sub-$1M players, sign a fair number of big stars, and save by rarely dipping into the treacherous waters of mid-range, declining free agents. The Orioles build their "foundation" with a large number of those players, most of whom are in decline or have already bottomed out.

[DrungoHazewood]

The initial offer was, as I recall, 5 years, $65 mm. In my opinion that was insultingly low. It was fewer years and fewer dollars per year than what Jim Thome had received the year before, even though Vlad was younger and better than Thome. It was far, far less than Vlad was worth.

Those who defend that offer do so for one of two reasons. First, they say that we were the only bidder. Well, tough. You simply don't make an initial offer that so obviously undervalues the player, no matter how little competition there is, unless you want to create competition by putting something on the table that isn't really even a converstation-starter. All it does is get the negotiation off on the wrong foot. And the O's have made this mistake time and time again.

The second defense is that Vlad wouldn't have signed here anyway. First of all, I already acknowledged in my initial post that.

The Orioles offer guaranteed that Vlad wouldn't sign here. If they'd opened with a killer offer I'd bet he'd have listened, and maybe actually signed. At least they'd have driven up the price. Worst case they overpay for a superstar... ooohh, that would have been terrible, wouldn't it?

The Orioles basically went to the BMW dealer, saw a $75,000 M5 that had been on the lot for a couple months. They offered the salesman $40k. The guy rolled his eyes and said "I'll call you back." After another month no call. The Orioles response? "Screw that guy, he doesn't want to sell the car." The salesman knew he had a quality product, and eventually someone would pay a lot closer to sticker.

[Mark Carver]

Frobby, you forgot about the Orioles lowballing Derrek Lee in the middle of 2003.

In 2003, the Orioles had a trade worked out with the Marlins for Derrek Lee. We went so far as to bring him to the warehouse in an attempt to negotiate an extension with Lee. The Orioles offer was too low, and Lee was traded to Chicago and subsequently signed an extension.

He signed an extension with the Cubs that was 3 years for $22.5M (2004-06). Now do tell us how much the Orioles offered him...

From ESPN

In fact, Lee almost went to the Baltimore Orioles. He even went to Camden Yards this week to talk about a contract extension, but the deal fell through.

"They're a good organization and they're headed in the right direction," Lee said. "It didn't feel right for me."

[NewMarketSean]

We're gonna lose Bedard one way or another. That is just a fact that we need to accept. Now will we let him walk and get the crap shoot draft picks? Or will we try to pull of a Bartolo Colon type trade and rebuild this organization?

We should trade Bedard this time next season if we're out of it.

[hoosiers]

Not a big fan of this thread at all. Teams start with lower offers ALL THE TIME - and it is really ignorant to claim otherwise.

Even in the Os recent history, we started off low with Mora and Huff and received a reduced asking price. The Vlad example is twisted ridiculously - "tell us what it takes to sign you in orange and black" (???) - when does that happen in early negotations. Didn't Jason Schmidt ask us to stop bidding on him? Pretty much the same with Richie Sexson ... What good would that question have done in those situations? And with 30 teams out there, do you really think we would identify a "must-have" free agent and not have a few other teams say the same question with their team colors to the same guy?

The posts in this thread imply that recent LT deals with players like Sizemore and Bonderman took place over a five minute period while waiting in line at Starbucks with no resistance whatsoever from management - or imply that our FO should show little resistance in such cases.

Frobby and Drungo post the best stuff out there, IMO, but this thread is a head-scratcher to me.

[clapdiddy]

Did NMS hijack your profile, Frobby?

You're wrong on Guerrero by the way...

Actually, in terms of dollars per season, he's right. The overall cash outlay was more, but it involved 6 years instead of 5.

I'm still of the theory that this was the "one that got away". We should've blown him out of the water with a deal and got him here. He was young, proven, and an MVP candidate every year.