Britt joining in on the bash fest

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, 7Mo said:

The rebuild is no where close to over.

Of course it is.  Rebuilds accomplish certain things.  Those things have been accomplished.  Payroll down, get rid of vets, draft early, build up the system.  We are 3 years into doing this.  
 

What else is left?  Development is a constantly ongoing thing.  That isn’t part of a rebuild.

[Hank Scorpio]

19 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

And likely no worse than 1-3 next year.  That will be 4 years in a row.

How many years in a row do we need to draft high before we are guaranteed championships?

Well done.

[foxfield]

52 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

First of all, you have no idea what I would or wouldn’t have done the last year because I have barely (if at all) posted about any individual players or moves I would have liked to have seen.

Secondly, there is a big issue with them not focusing on the ML team.  Just because it’s true they haven’t doesn’t mean they are right for doing it.

The rebuild is over.  They are just stealing at this point.  What a rebuild does, the Os have already accomplished…build up the system, obtain long term roster and payroll flexibility, get younger, etc…oh and btw, you don’t actually need to lose for a lot of years to accomplish these things either.  You can win 100 games a year and still do these things.

Over?  Did you say over?  

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Over?  Did you say over?  

Yea.  I will ask you the same thing I just asked someone else.

W/R/T what a rebuild does..what is left to be done.  When we discuss what you do in a rebuild, what do we discuss that hasn’t happened.

[Camden_yardbird]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Except the system doesn’t require that.

I'm sure you are going to cite the Rays...

Or how small market owners are just jacking up profits in those down years and could be spending money to put a more competitive product on the field?

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Camden_yardbird said:

I'm sure you are going to cite the Rays...

Or how small market owners are just jacking up profits in those down years and could be spending money to put a more competitive product on the field?

Well it’s not just the Rays,.Oakland too.

Either way, it’s not true that the system is set up that way.
 

The system is the same in all sports. You build your team by drafting and developing properly.  Free agency is a tool to help put you over the top but it’s a terrible way to build a team.  Money is a great thing because it gives you a margin for error that the teams who can’t spend don’t really have but money can be used as a crutch too and when it’s spent poorly, which is almost always the case, it becomes a hindrance.

[Hank Scorpio]

"Churning" intelligently is the key, and until now it's been a lot of windows and where is our current window? Is it open? Is it closed? What is our window doing right now?

I really hope that we can get to a level of sustainability where Tampa is. That takes a lot of time and whatever happens with the new CBA could alter that dramatically. I guess we'll see. We need to be comfortable with trading valuable pieces from competitive teams at times that are not intuitive if it means greater competitive sustainability. 

What does that look like? Bad PR!!!! Appeasing the fanbase should definitely not be the first priority of the GM. It should be creating a sustainably competitive ORGANIZATION from top to bottom. Being hyperfocused on the top just isn't the way to go... and being hyperfocused on the bottom isn't the way to go. 

But to get to the point where it's sustainable, you have to start on the bottom. 

Just my $.02. Hopefully once Elias gets things systemically where he wants them, we'll never have to go through embarrassing ML seasons again. I've seen unwatchable Orioles baseball for the better part of my life. This is as bad as I can remember. 

[foxfield]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea.  I will ask you the same thing I just asked someone else.

W/R/T what a rebuild does..what is left to be done.  When we discuss what you do in a rebuild, what do we discuss that hasn’t happened.

Ok...what is left to be done.  When we discuss what you do in a rebuild it is vitally important to understand what a rebuild is and isn't.  I'm sorry but you do not.

To begin with...let's say for example we are talking about something entirely different such as building a house.  It would be presumptuous to say for example that building a home takes 6 months.  It might.  But there are literally thousands of legitimate reasons that it would take significantly longer.  Some of those reasons would impact or reflect on the job of the builder and some would reflect the difficulty of the job at hand.  But stating unequivocally that it 6 months is how long it takes would demonstrate either a lack of understanding or an intentional over simplified explanation.

You believe the Orioles should be better than they are and I do not disagree.  However you state things unequivocally that are simply false.  I cannot discuss what is done or undone if your mindset is based on a presupposition that the timeframe for doing everything has expired and therefore failed.  You use fail and theft and there is really nowhere to go if that is what you believe.  

The rebuild of Mike Elias with regards to The Baltimore Orioles may well fail.  It might be failing even as we speak.  But I continue to look for signs in Oriole and baseball history of rebuilds.  And if we are going to discuss what a rebuild is or isn't, it would best be done if we understand initially that if you begin with the idea that a rebuild is simply getting "Payroll down, get rid of vets, draft early, build up the system."  Then you really do not understand the task at hand. 

I enjoy your posts and they always stimulate conversation.  But the rebuild is over statement lets the cat out of the bag that you were never on board for a rebuild.  That's ok.  It shouldn't be a test of knowledge or fandom to sign up that.  This organization has sucked for a quarter of a century or longer.  Most of the reason that it has sucked however is the over simplified view of ownership that turning it around is  easy.

 

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Ok...what is left to be done.  When we discuss what you do in a rebuild it is vitally important to understand what a rebuild is and isn't.  I'm sorry but you do not.

To begin with...let's say for example we are talking about something entirely different such as building a house.  It would be presumptuous to say for example that building a home takes 6 months.  It might.  But there are literally thousands of legitimate reasons that it would take significantly longer.  Some of those reasons would impact or reflect on the job of the builder and some would reflect the difficulty of the job at hand.  But stating unequivocally that it 6 months is how long it takes would demonstrate either a lack of understanding or an intentional over simplified explanation.

You believe the Orioles should be better than they are and I do not disagree.  However you state things unequivocally that are simply false.  I cannot discuss what is done or undone if your mindset is based on a presupposition that the timeframe for doing everything has expired and therefore failed.  You use fail and theft and there is really nowhere to go if that is what you believe.  

The rebuild of Mike Elias with regards to The Baltimore Orioles may well fail.  It might be failing even as we speak.  But I continue to look for signs in Oriole and baseball history of rebuilds.  And if we are going to discuss what a rebuild is or isn't, it would best be done if we understand initially that if you begin with the idea that a rebuild is simply getting "Payroll down, get rid of vets, draft early, build up the system."  Then you really do not understand the task at hand. 

I enjoy your posts and they always stimulate conversation.  But the rebuild is over statement lets the cat out of the bag that you were never on board for a rebuild.  That's ok.  It shouldn't be a test of knowledge or fandom to sign up that.  This organization has sucked for a quarter of a century or longer.  Most of the reason that it has sucked however is the over simplified view of ownership that turning it around is  easy.

 

Great job not answering the question.

What do you think still needs to be done as part of the rebuild?  
 

I think you are putting things under the rebuild umbrella that don’t belong.

[Ohfan67]

45 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea.  I will ask you the same thing I just asked someone else.

W/R/T what a rebuild does..what is left to be done.  When we discuss what you do in a rebuild, what do we discuss that hasn’t happened.

I think the rebuild is over when there is enough young talent coming up and on the near horizon that a team starts to invest significantly in free agents and starts targeting specific needs for the ML team in significant trades. I think the Orioles system was so barren that Elias and the Angelos' won't see the as over rebuild phase as defined above for another year or, more likely, two years.  Not a fun answer, but it's how I see the rebuild and I think it is how Elias et al. are likely to see the rebuild. By the way, I don't mean to imply that I am happy with that scenario and I hope it doesn't preclude Elias from spending at least a little real money to improve next year's major league product. 

 

p.s. By the way, I do think the Orioles run by the brothers will eventually spend money. Despite how many of us gripe, the Orioles have rarely not spent on the team. The primarily problems were always how they spent their money on the major league team and their lack of attention to the international market. 

[Ohfan67]

So many typos. I need another cup of coffee. 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Ohfan67 said:

I think the rebuild is over when there is enough young talent coming up and on the near horizon that a team starts to invest significantly in free agents and starts targeting specific needs for the ML team in significant trades. I think the Orioles system was so barren that Elias and the Angelos' won't see the as over rebuild phase as defined above for another year or, more likely, two years.  Not a fun answer, but it's how I see the rebuild and I think it is how Elias et al. are likely to see the rebuild. By the way, I don't mean to imply that I am happy with that scenario and I hope it doesn't preclude Elias from spending at least a little real money to improve next year's major league product. 

 

p.s. By the way, I do think the Orioles run by the brothers will eventually spend money. Despite how many of us gripe, the Orioles have rarely not spent on the team. The primarily problems were always how they spent their money on the major league team and their lack of attention to the international market. 

See I don’t see that as rebuilding.
 

Next year, AR, GRod, Baumann and others will be up and contributing.  That isn’t really rebuilding.  That is just the natural progression of players being brought up when the team deems them ready.

Every single team in baseball does this.  Every single team relies on young players to come up and fill roster spots.  
 

Spending more money in FA isn’t rebuilding either..that’s the aftermath of a rebuild.

[Just Regular]

I think holistically Mike Elias would say the rebuild isn't truly over and the pipeline complete until the Maikol Hernandez/Samuel Basallo type player's talent is benefiting the major league team.   The Latin America ramp-up from zero is probably more like 10 than 5 years.

Now with that being said, I expect by 2023 those players will become factors for the quality of the MLB team as trade bait if they progress well, but unless we strike gold with a lower profile guy that becomes a MLB contributor in less than 5 years, the MLB Orioles will remain at some kind of deficit to the other 29 teams.

Payroll flexibility and many years of drafting high should nonetheless provide enough to compete well before then.   In terms of sustainability, the Latin American guys hopefully start to offset drafting lower in the second half of the decade.

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, OrioleDog said:

I think holistically Mike Elias would say the rebuild isn't truly over and the pipeline complete until the Maikol Hernandez/Samuel Basallo type player's talent is benefiting the major league team.   The Latin America ramp-up from zero is probably more like 10 than 5 years.

Now with that being said, I expect by 2023 those players will become factors for the quality of the MLB team as trade bait if they progress well, but unless we strike gold with a lower profile guy that becomes a MLB contributor in less than 5 years, the MLB Orioles will remain at some kind of deficit to the other 29 teams.

Payroll flexibility and many years of drafting high should nonetheless provide enough to compete well before then.   In terms of sustainability, the Latin American guys hopefully start to offset drafting lower in the second half of the decade.

Of course Elias is going to say it because he’s trying to justify why the team is terrible without saying ownership won’t commit right now.

 But waiting to see if 17 y/o Intl FA become anything isnt rebuilding.

[Ohfan67]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

See I don’t see that as rebuilding.
 

Next year, AR, GRod, Baumann and others will be up and contributing.  That isn’t really rebuilding.  That is just the natural progression of players being brought up when the team deems them ready.

Every single team in baseball does this.  Every single team relies on young players to come up and fill roster spots.  
 

Spending more money in FA isn’t rebuilding either..that’s the aftermath of a rebuild.

I think they will slow walk the best prospects next year and will not spend significant money on free agents. I think the Orioles will suck "by design" again next year because they want to maximize the dollars they can spend on the draft. I think those are all parts of the modern suckitude rebuilding model. I don't think they will want to spend real money on ML improvements until they have more talent rising through the minors. I think the rebuild is not over until they get serious about improving the ML club...by "serious" I mean an effort to be truly competitive and not just rolls-of-the-dice signings like Matt Harvey and Franco. Do I want the Orioles to suck next year? No. Do I think they are still rebuilding and will suck again next year (by design)? Yes. This year has been so bad that Elias and the Angelos brothers may have to spend some cash to keep next year's team from being historically bad, but I don't think they will sign any free agents to multi year deals, etc. To me that is continuing to rebuild.