Is John Means one of the top six starters in the AL East in 2022?

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, wildcard said:

No reaching.  Baseball is a team sport.  When there are good players around your pitchers they do better.   

Is there proof of that?

[RZNJ]

I need to see him put a full season together before I can say that he is.   He sure looked like it in the first half last year.   I think, potentially, he could be one of the top 5 starters in the East, maybe even in the League but he's gotta do it for a full season.

[HowAboutThat]

No

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

I need to see him put a full season together before I can say that he is.   He sure looked like it in the first half last year.   I think, potentially, he could be one of the top 5 starters in the East, maybe even in the League but he's gotta do it for a full season.

He also needs to pitch more innings.  

[HowAboutThat]

18 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Is there proof of that?

It seems pretty intuitive that given a team sport, if your teammates are better you will be better. I’m not sure one needs detailed analytics to confirm the obvious.

no I don’t think means is a top six picture, but I agree with you that it doesn’t matter. He is our best but on a playoff team I think he would be three or four. The question we need to be asking is whether Mike will flip the switch, and if so, where will means be in our own rotation? I would love for him to be top six on the Orioles, instead of number one on the Orioles.

[wildcard]

33 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Is there proof of that?

Can you disprove it?

[HowAboutThat]

5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Can you disprove it?

There’s no need to. The very definition of “team sport” reveals the need for every individual teammate to be as good as possible. It is ridiculous to suggest that being surrounded by Top players does not help you play better yourself.

[wildcard]

I grew up watching Frank, Brooks, Boog, Belanger, Grich, Johnson, Palmer, and McNally.   Boog would always tell Brooks and Belanger that he saved them  so many errors and should have part on their Gold Gloves.   Palmer would say he could not have won his Cy Young awards without that defense behind him.   The offensive players would feed off each other.   The pitchers could pitch around one but had to pitch to the next guy.

I saw it happen.

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, Philip said:

There’s no need to. The very definition of “team sport” reveals the need for every individual teammate to be as good as possible. It is ridiculous to suggest that being surrounded by Top players does not help you play better yourself.

Baseball is a team sport that is very individualized.

The defense matters for the pitcher but our OF defense was good last year and that is where Means would be effected the most.  Could better IF defense help?  Sure but probably not that much.  
 

The offense of the team matters very little to his success.

[wildcard]

31 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Baseball is a team sport that is very individualized.

The defense matters for the pitcher but our OF defense was good last year and that is where Means would be effected the most.  Could better IF defense help?  Sure but probably not that much.  
 

The offense of the team matters very little to his success.

I bet if you ask him he would say its easier to pitch with a 3 run lead.

[HowAboutThat]

17 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Baseball is a team sport that is very individualized.

The defense matters for the pitcher but our OF defense was good last year and that is where Means would be effected the most.  Could better IF defense help?  Sure but probably not that much.  
 

The offense of the team matters very little to his success.

Oh I agree with you about the offense, mostly. But it does seem obvious that if a pitcher has a five run lead, he’s going to be more aggressive and less careful, because he has a buffer zone. Certainly the manager is more likely to leave a starter in with a big lead, even if he’s not doing very well so although question is less clear when it comes to offense, I do think it remains true. But the question was whether being surrounded by elite players makes you play better yourself, and I think that is absolutely true. That’s why we talk about locker room leader ship and accountability and such.

I’ve certainly seen it myself in my own work environment too often to ignore it here.

 

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, Philip said:

Oh I agree with you about the offense, mostly. But it does seem obvious that if a pitcher has a five run lead, he’s going to be more aggressive and less careful, because he has a buffer zone. Certainly the manager is more likely to leave a starter in with a big lead, even if he’s not doing very well so although question is less clear when it comes to offense, I do think it remains true. But the question was whether being surrounded by elite players makes you play better yourself, and I think that is absolutely true. That’s why we talk about locker room leader ship and accountability and such.

I’ve certainly seen it myself in my own work environment too often to ignore it here.

 

Yes and the pitcher is also more likely to groove pitches and give up an extra run or 2 because “the pressure is off”.

Offense has very little to do with it.

Defense helps..to an extent but it doesn’t help you miss bats, get Ks, walk fewer guys, give up less homers, etc…

[HowAboutThat]

33 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes and the pitcher is also more likely to groove pitches and give up an extra run or 2 because “the pressure is off”.

Offense has very little to do with it.

Defense helps..to an extent but it doesn’t help you miss bats, get Ks, walk fewer guys, give up less homers, etc…

What the defense does is help compensate for mistakes. Very often a mistake is due to be too careful. That’s why a player will say, “oh I was really loose today.”

in order for that comment to have any meaning at all, it must refer to the lack of pressure on the individual due to confidence in teammates.

With a good defense behind you, you don’t have to worry so much about perfect your self, so yes. 
No player can play better than his hypothetical best.

However, by surrounding him with the best possible teammates and other environmental issues, we remove impediments.

That is what wildcard is referring to, and I agree with him.

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, Philip said:

What the defense does is help compensate for mistakes. Very often a mistake is due to be too careful. That’s why a player will say, “oh I was really loose today.”

in order for that comment to have any meaning at all, it must refer to the lack of pressure on the individual due to confidence in teammates.

With a good defense behind you, you don’t have to worry so much about perfect your self, so yes. 
No player can play better than his hypothetical best.

However, by surrounding him with the best possible teammates and other environmental issues, we remove impediments.

That is what wildcard is referring to, and I agree with him.

You can agree with him but there is zero evidence that being on a good offensive team makes you a better pitcher.  You can come up with all the cliches and bs theories you want but show me actual evidence.

Its like when someone says so and so is clutch..but what they ignore is that their “clutch” OPS is generally the same as their all the time OPS.   
 

It sounds good in theory but the actual evidence doesn’t exist.

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

You can agree with him but there is zero evidence that being on a good offensive team makes you a better pitcher.  You can come up with all the cliches and bs theories you want but show me actual evidence.

Its like when someone says so and so is clutch..but what they ignore is that their “clutch” OPS is generally the same as their all the time OPS.   
 

It sounds good in theory but the actual evidence doesn’t exist.

There is no need for the actual evidence to exist, it’s like conducting an experiment to confirm that the sun rises in the east.

I made my point, I justified it, if you have a problem go back to yelling at wildcard. I was just defending him.