The Elias Motto "Winning Doesn't Matter"

[Bahama O's Fan]

This has been the theme for four years at the major league level. Just keep repeating it every time you get upset at the Orioles' results. "Winning doesn't matter, winning doesn't matter, winning doesn't matter". I'm sure Mike has had to say it enough times around the offices. Until it does, we (me included) gotta figure out how to accept it. 

[deward]

3 hours ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

This has been the theme for four years at the major league level. Just keep repeating it every time you get upset at the Orioles' results. "Winning doesn't matter, winning doesn't matter, winning doesn't matter". I'm sure Mike has had to say it enough times around the offices. Until it does, we (me included) gotta figure out how to accept it. 

Winning always matters, no matter how much Elias says it. Every season that is thrown away costs the team fans who either won't come back, or won't come back with the same level of enthusiasm. Punting year after year can't help but damage the relationship with the fan base. Speaking for myself, I've been following this club for over 30 years and the past 2-3 years, for the first time, I find myself not watching games regularly, and just generally emotionally distancing myself from the team. Not to mention that years are being wasted out of the careers of guys who could have been part of better teams. It feels like players like Mullins, Means, and Mancini only have value as trade bait at this point, rather than as pieces of the puzzle for a contender. Another year or two and Mountcastle will be in that same boat. All of this matters. It might all get fixed if the team goes the route of the Astros and starts to dominate the division and becomes a regular World Series contender, but will that really happen? 

[Aristotelian]

7 minutes ago, deward said:

Winning always matters, no matter how much Elias says it. Every season that is thrown away costs the team fans who either won't come back, or won't come back with the same level of enthusiasm. Punting year after year can't help but damage the relationship with the fan base. Speaking for myself, I've been following this club for over 30 years and the past 2-3 years, for the first time, I find myself not watching games regularly, and just generally emotionally distancing myself from the team. Not to mention that years are being wasted out of the careers of guys who could have been part of better teams. It feels like players like Mullins, Means, and Mancini only have value as trade bait at this point, rather than as pieces of the puzzle for a contender. Another year or two and Mountcastle will be in that same boat. All of this matters. It might all get fixed if the team goes the route of the Astros and starts to dominate the division and becomes a regular World Series contender, but will that really happen? 

You made it through '98-'12 and you're going to give up now in April of rebuild year four with #1 position and pitching prospects due to arrive this year and #1 farm system? 

 

 

[deward]

11 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

You made it through '98-'12 and you're going to give up now in April of rebuild year four with #1 position and pitching prospects due to arrive this year and #1 farm system? 

 

 

I didn't say that, I wouldn't be posting here if I had. I'm just saying that 4 (going on 5) years of them not even trying has had an impact on my relationship with the franchise. At least in 98-11, there was an attempt to win games. They weren't competent, but it wasn't that they weren't trying. I can live with that a lot more easily than with full-on tanking. YMMV

[Frobby]

25 minutes ago, deward said:

Winning always matters, no matter how much Elias says it. Every season that is thrown away costs the team fans who either won't come back, or won't come back with the same level of enthusiasm. Punting year after year can't help but damage the relationship with the fan base. Speaking for myself, I've been following this club for over 30 years and the past 2-3 years, for the first time, I find myself not watching games regularly, and just generally emotionally distancing myself from the team. Not to mention that years are being wasted out of the careers of guys who could have been part of better teams. It feels like players like Mullins, Means, and Mancini only have value as trade bait at this point, rather than as pieces of the puzzle for a contender. Another year or two and Mountcastle will be in that same boat. All of this matters. It might all get fixed if the team goes the route of the Astros and starts to dominate the division and becomes a regular World Series contender, but will that really happen? 

Truthfully, I doubt Elias has ever uttered the words “winning doesn’t matter” in public.  It’s more like “winning at the major league level is secondary to development right now” or something like that.   And Elias expressly said he expects this year’s team to start winning more games, though he didn’t say how many.   

I do think you are right that there is a cumulative affect on fan morale when the team is getting beaten like a drum for several years and isn’t doing anything to change that situation in the near term.   You are probably right that there are some fans that won’t come back if and when the team gets better, because they became so disaffected the last few seasons.   I think we even saw that in 2012-16, when attendance never did reach the level it was at in 2005, the first year the Nats were in DC.   And it couid be a bigger gap this time.   Will the next O’s playoff team draw over 2 million fans?  I’m not sure.   But I do think that if the O’s realize Elias’ vision of becoming a consistent contender, fans will come back.   There will always be a large group of bandwagon fans who decide that watching a winning team is fun.  

I was actually surprised that the Tuesday-Wednesday crowds were in the 11-12,000 range.  That used to be considered pathetic but that’s pretty decent by the standards of the last few years, especially in early April.   

 

[Bahama O's Fan]

39 minutes ago, deward said:

Winning always matters, no matter how much Elias says it. Every season that is thrown away costs the team fans who either won't come back, or won't come back with the same level of enthusiasm. Punting year after year can't help but damage the relationship with the fan base. Speaking for myself, I've been following this club for over 30 years and the past 2-3 years, for the first time, I find myself not watching games regularly, and just generally emotionally distancing myself from the team. Not to mention that years are being wasted out of the careers of guys who could have been part of better teams. It feels like players like Mullins, Means, and Mancini only have value as trade bait at this point, rather than as pieces of the puzzle for a contender. Another year or two and Mountcastle will be in that same boat. All of this matters. It might all get fixed if the team goes the route of the Astros and starts to dominate the division and becomes a regular World Series contender, but will that really happen? 

I agree with you. The question Mike has to answer is how long can he keep losing and still expect to keep (or bring back) the fans?

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

It’s easy to blow it up and rebuild…changing that to a winning culture takes skill and Elias seems to not even being trying on the phase. 

[Can_of_corn]

57 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

I agree with you. The question Mike has to answer is how long can he keep losing and still expect to keep (or bring back) the fans?

If you keep payroll down you don't need fans.

[deward]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Truthfully, I doubt Elias has ever uttered the words “winning doesn’t matter” in public.  It’s more like “winning at the major league level is secondary to development right now” or something like that.   And Elias expressly said he expects this year’s team to start winning more games, though he didn’t say how many.   

I do think you are right that there is a cumulative affect on fan morale when the team is getting beaten like a drum for several years and isn’t doing anything to change that situation in the near term.   You are probably right that there are some fans that won’t come back if and when the team gets better, because they became so disaffected the last few seasons.   I think we even saw that in 2012-16, when attendance never did reach the level it was at in 2005, the first year the Nats were in DC.   And it couid be a bigger gap this time.   Will the next O’s playoff team draw over 2 million fans?  I’m not sure.   But I do think that if the O’s realize Elias’ vision of becoming a consistent contender, fans will come back.   There will always be a large group of bandwagon fans who decide that watching a winning team is fun.  

I was actually surprised that the Tuesday-Wednesday crowds were in the 11-12,000 range.  That used to be considered pathetic but that’s pretty decent by the standards of the last few years, especially in early April.   

 

That gets at a point that I've been trying to work out for myself for a while now. On the other side of this rebuild, what level of winning do we need to see in order to call it a success, and worthwhile? Do they need to have a stretch of winning 100 games a year like the Astros did? Do they need to be doing toe to toe with the rest of the AL East for the division title every year? What if they only start winning 85 games a year and just stay on the fringes of the wild card race? Will that be enough to restore the damage done to the fan base? I don't know the answer here, I just know that this approach has always seemed risky to me. Especially when you have another team right in your backyard to siphon off fans during the down years (something the Astros didn't have to worry about).

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, deward said:

That gets at a point that I've been trying to work out for myself for a while now. On the other side of this rebuild, what level of winning do we need to see in order to call it a success, and worthwhile? Do they need to have a stretch of winning 100 games a year like the Astros did? Do they need to be doing toe to toe with the rest of the AL East for the division title every year? What if they only start winning 85 games a year and just stay on the fringes of the wild card race? Will that be enough to restore the damage done to the fan base? I don't know the answer here, I just know that this approach has always seemed risky to me. Especially when you have another team right in your backyard to siphon off fans during the down years (something the Astros didn't have to worry about).

Considering how excited folks got over finishing the season at .500 in 2015 the bar won't be too high.

 

[Bahama O's Fan]

59 minutes ago, deward said:

That gets at a point that I've been trying to work out for myself for a while now. On the other side of this rebuild, what level of winning do we need to see in order to call it a success, and worthwhile? Do they need to have a stretch of winning 100 games a year like the Astros did? Do they need to be doing toe to toe with the rest of the AL East for the division title every year? What if they only start winning 85 games a year and just stay on the fringes of the wild card race? Will that be enough to restore the damage done to the fan base? I don't know the answer here, I just know that this approach has always seemed risky to me. Especially when you have another team right in your backyard to siphon off fans during the down years (something the Astros didn't have to worry about).

And for how many years will success be sustained?

[yark14]

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by yark14