Mateo's Bottom of the Eighth (Infield in 2023 talk)

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

It is going to be amazing around here if resigning Rougned Odor is an early offseason transaction.

I’d buy tickets to watch this board implode if that happened.  

[orioles22]

I don't understand why people believe Mateo has reached his peak. He has progressed quite a bit over two years. He always could regress, but I think he could be a .280 hitter and the best shortstops in the league. As i've said before, I certainly don't see him as a utility guy. It would be very dumb to put Mateo at second or in left and have an inferior defender at short.

[btdart20]

25 minutes ago, nvpacchi said:

Mateo may have also maxxed out his defensive WAR value this year.  And it becomes a dangerous proposition banking on a glove first SS repeating the same WAR value next year.

...

I think that's really just a long winded way of saying that continued success from Mateo at a macro level has to come from his bat,  I really want it to happen, because he is just an electric player.  But each passing day leaves me a little less optimistic.

Yep.

24 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I do think there’s a decent possibility that someone out of Mateo, Urias, Westburg and Ortiz gets traded.  Which one, I couldn’t say.  

Agreed.  I have my preferences, but I imagine Elias has his too (and better data).

21 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

<Scrabble U-dump mode>

I think that's KUDU.

</Scrabble U-dump mode>

Infield-wise, good talk.   We're all burying these 2022 upstarts and turning forward.    For Urias projecting into a 2023 reserve role, how about him practicing some 1B over the winter too?    Gunnar's 1st month, I was really surprised the Orioles internal evaluations were I guess so low on "2B Urias" that they went with some 3B Urias, 2B Gunnar (first time in my life I've done this, but sure why not) configurations.

I think Mateo has flashed enough I'm okay if he is the Opening Day shortstop, even though Gunnar sitting down with Ben in the pregame shows the last two nights, answering where he'd go if he was just a kid in travel ball, said shortstop.    Everybody says shortstop.     Westburg will, Ortiz will.     Maybe Jackson Holliday will even play SS full-time in the minor leagues.

Westburg v. Ortiz - Ortiz's great play has been wonderful, but the Elias Draft Pool Dollar Scoreboard remains Westburg $2.3 mm, Ortiz $450k.    FIVE times more.     Westburg was meant to be this good, and I believe will get the first couple months of run.     Westburg has held serve, and has more AAA reps.

I don't know what shenanigans will happen with Cowser-Westburg going towards sustaining Orioles control over their 2029 seasons, but if they don't sign Long Term extensions in Spring Training, it'll probably be something.     The forecast will be for Gunnar and somebody like Jung-Casas-Volpe to get the automatic full seasons of service time earned by 2023 Rookie of the Year and runner-up.    Grayson won't get the playing time portion I don't think, even if he's better.    I hope he gets more than 2 innings next spring, but figure his 2022 "platform" may equate with a nice slow build up.   

Shenanigans aside, I hope to see 2B Westburg (and OF Cowser) early.    The Club would benefit from seeing how 3B Gunnar, SS Mateo, 2B Westburg mesh.     Gunnar and Westburg linked as thoroughbreds since COVID-times I think will work to Westburg's advantage in the short term, and as a result Ortiz-Norby will get challenged with AAA a bit more.

Am I getting the 40-man roster rules right that by Opening Day, after the Rule 5, Westburg could effectively be a "free add" as John Means goes to the 60-day DL in early 2023.    Means loses the 60-day free ride for the whole Rule 5 deal in the offseason, but the Orioles get it back once play resumes.

 

 

I hope multiple someones/anyones who can hit takes reps at 1B in the org!

And I believe Elias can set aside his 'draft capital' ego to make a decision based on merit vs. status.  

Ultimately, we have a ton of good options and decisions.  We're in a good place!

 

 

[maybenxtyr]

20 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

It is going to be amazing around here if resigning Rougned Odor is an early offseason transaction.

I fully expect it.

[wildcard]

28 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I suspect that Mike likes the idea of the players drafted and developed under his regime coming up and making their mark.   Just as he did with Lopez, I think he’s going to seize the opportunity to get something for guys he got for nothing while they are at or close to peak value.   That would include Mateo and Urías but I think Santander falls into that peak value bucket as well.  

Elias traded Lopez for two reasons.  1)  he didn't think the O's were a playoff team,  2) he had Bautista, Perez and Tate all pitching well in late relief.    

Westburg and Ortiz have not played a day in the majors. It might be a little soon to think the Elias would  trade Urias or Mateo this off season.  Maybe at the deadline if things go well next year.

[Frobby]

Just now, wildcard said:

Elias traded Lopez for two reasons.  1)  he didn't think the O's were a playoff team,  2) he had Bautista, Perez and Tate all pitching well in late relief.    

Westburg and Ortiz have not played a day in the majors. It might be a little soon to think the Elias would  trade Urias or Mateo this off season.  Maybe at the deadline if things go well next year.

Sometimes you have to take risks.  I’m sure Elias has a better idea than we do of how Westburg and Ortiz will fare in the majors.  So, he might be willing to take that leap.  Might. 

[Pickles]

47 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

All this talk about 3.2 WAR 28 year old Urías making peanuts and you don’t think we can get anything of value back?  Some lower level prospects?   A couple of potential bullpen arms?  Nothing?

I think he's worth more to us than somebody else.  You make the point: I don't want to trade a 3 WAR 28 year old making peanuts for some low level prospects; I'm certainly not in a rush to do it.  And if that involves us "slow rolling" Joey Ortiz- and to be fair, I don't think that accurately describes the situation at all- then that's fine with me.

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, Pickles said:

And the team would be much better with him at 2b than 3b.  That's what I care about.

I don't know that that is true. If you put him at a spot where he has little defensive value, we may have guys who can play the position with more offense. If he's not going to play 3B

[Aristotelian]

.... If he's not going to play 3B for us we may want to trade him to someone who values him as a 3B

[Pickles]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I don't know that that is true. If you put him at a spot where he has little defensive value, we may have guys who can play the position with more offense. If he's not going to play 3B

I don't think there's anything to support he has little defensive value at 2b.  It's still an important position, arguably more important than 3b.

[InsideCoroner]

6 hours ago, Pickles said:

I just really think it's worth noting Jorge Mateo's performance in the bottom of the eighth inning last night.  He made three defensive plays, ranging from nice to spectacular, to record all three outs and save the Orioles at least two runs, likely several more.  He had Jim Palmer, an expert if there ever was one, waxing poetic about Mateo's defensive ability, calling it "as good as it gets" and specifically conjuring up the names Aparicio, Belanger, and Ripken.  I include the link to the final out.

https://www.mlb.com/video/akil-baddoo-lines-out-to-shortstop-jorge-mateo?cp=MIXED&p=0&q=TeamId %3D [110] Order By Timestamp DESC

I have to say, my favorite part of that video is the very end where they show Baddoo’s shock that Mateo caught that ball. 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

19 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

.... If he's not going to play 3B for us we may want to trade him to someone who values him as a 3B

I like this idea as a potential offseason move. 

[Aristotelian]

11 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I don't think there's anything to support he has little defensive value at 2b.  It's still an important position, arguably more important than 3b.

DWAR, UZR/150, and Fangraphs DEF all have him significantly better this year as primary 3B vs last year when he was mostly 2B/SS. 

[Just Regular]

Next year I think I'd frame my Ramon Urias hopes like he'll play the role Tyler Nevin got a crack at this year, except he'll actually fulfill the role well.

If we leave DH a flex, he and Stowers could even kind of sort of be "the starters" except that most days one of them will go into the field covering whoever of the primary starters is getting half a day off.

Until we trade anything out of the Top 12-13 position players next year for other stuff, I feel like you have to be Xander Bogaerts or Carlos Correa to represent a meaningful upgrade.    All over the diamond there are at least C+ or B- type options.

[Pickles]

23 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

DWAR, UZR/150, and Fangraphs DEF all have him significantly better this year as primary 3B vs last year when he was mostly 2B/SS. 

I understand that.  But again, I'm not looking to maximize Urias' individual value, defensive or not, I'm looking to maximize the defensive value of my entire team.