Elias sounds like he is shooting high

[tabletop]

40 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

How is the Verlander comment ridiculous? He blew a 4-run lead in game in and turned a win into a loss.   He went 5 innings and finally won his first WS game ever, I believe, later in the series.   He's a great pitcher.  I'd love to have him.   But his record in the WS is not very good.

Framber Valdez was the better pitcher in the WS.  I doubt many people considered him a #1 before the season started.

It's ridiculous because one bad game doesn't mean that he didn't help the Astros contend for the World Series.

[wildcard]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Convincing prayers to come here won’t be the issue..it’s the money.

Freudian slip?  Do you think the O's will need prayers to sign FAs?

Edited November 17, 2022 by wildcard

[tabletop]

23 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

His point is, and it’s the correct one, is that aces don’t ensure WS or playoff wins. 

You made the comment about winning the WS.  Verlander has been an awful pitcher in the WS.  Other aces have struggled in the playoffs as well.  How did having aces work out for the Mets in the playoffs?

I said "contention to win the World Series". I never said that having an ace would guarantee a World Series or playoff win. Other teams have aces too and I would much rather have someone like Rodon, Verlander, etc. facing off against another teams best than Taillon, Walker, etc.. I strongly believe a true ace would help the O's be in contention to win a World Series much more than adding two guys like Taillon and Walker would.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Freudian slip?  Do you think the O's will need prays to sign FAs?

Lol oops

The prayers would be directed at “hoping ownership doesn’t F it up”

[RZNJ]

10 minutes ago, tabletop said:

It's ridiculous because one bad game doesn't mean that he didn't help the Astros contend for the World Series.

Ok.   What do you consider contending for the WS?   Do you have to get into the actual WS?   If we sign Taillon and trade for Lopez and lose in the ALCS in 7 games, did we contend for a WS?

In 2014, without a true ace, we lost to KC in the ALCS.  Didn't we contend for a WS that year?

Edited November 17, 2022 by RZNJ

[wildcard]

4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Ok.   What do you consider contending for the WS?   Do you have to get into the actual WS?   If we sign Taillon and trade for Lopez and lose in the ALCS in 7 games, did we contend for a WS?

In 2014, without a true ace, we lost to KC in the ALCS.  Didn't we contend for a WS that year?

I don't think the O's have to acquire an ace to have one in 2023.   Bradish or Kremer could become one.    And while neither Grayson nor Hall project to get  enough innings to be an ace they could pitch like one in the innings they get.

[tabletop]

Just now, RZNJ said:

Ok.   What do you consider contending for the WS?   Do you have to get into the actual WS?   If we sign Taillon and trade for Lopez and lose in the ALCS in 7 games, did we contend for a WS?

A contender for the WS, for me, would be a highly talented team that matches up well with other top teams. Teams like Houston, NYM, Toronto, NYY, San Diego, LAD, Atlanta. The teams that you expect to compete for a title. I think in terms of overall talent Philadelphia is probably in that mold. Or, they just got hot at the right time. Maybe Seattle is in that mix of contenders too, not sure right now off the top of my head. Also not really too sure on the Yankees.

No, you don't have to get to the actual WS. Teams get hot in the playoffs all the time and upset teams that are better than them. By that logic the only two contenders last year were Houston and Philadelphia.

I can't answer that last question because it would depend on other variables. Did they pitch better than they did in 2022? Did one of them turn into an ace over the season? Were the offense and bullpen so good that the starters just needed to figure out a way to get the game to the bullpen?

[RZNJ]

34 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I don't think the O's have to acquire an ace to have one in 2023.   Bradish or Kremer could become one.    And while neither Grayson nor Hall project to get  enough innings to be an ace they could pitch like one in the innings they get.

I happen to agree with you but it seems like Tabletop wants a little more certainty.

[AlbNYfan]

47 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I happen to agree with you but it seems like Tabletop wants a little more certainty.

If you want certainty buy FTX..oh wait. You can win 120 games and still not get to the WS. The NCAA basketball starts with 66, 68?? now. One winner, the other 67 losers?? I think the O's will be in a decent position next year with smart moves, not moves that just for the sake of moves. Maybe not a WS but a good run at it.

[Just Regular]

2 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

I believe Jesse Winker grew up in Orlando, Florida. I know he went to high school here anyway. Olympia HS, I believe.

Looks like his family did the sunbird thing when he was 7, but NFL wise at least he's kept to his roots and that's the stuff I've heard about him now and then.

https://buffalonews.com/sports/baseball/seattle-mariners-outfielder-and-rabid-buffalo-bills-fan-jesse-winker-this-is-the-year-they/article_9e4e917c-d708-11ec-81d9-ef3ea631eaa2.html

Still on the SEA roster with Teoscar, and the bad buzz around his fall, imagine a few sharks circling Dipoto now looking for a deal.

[Bemorewins]

2 hours ago, interloper said:

Another thing that has hampered the O's in the past has been that they weren't willing to give out these aggressive opt-outs. That remains to be seen with the Elias regime. 

But I don't know if I agree that it's just about money. Sure, if the O's wildly overpay they will get their guy. But if they overpay a little bit, and the Astros are coming in with a little less, that player is going to the Astros almost certainly. 

The opt outs are the cost of doing business with some of the top guys. Opt outs won’t hurt the Orioles given their current roster makeup, they will actually help them. However, old players like Verlander won’t be asking for an opt out as this is his last deal to sign. 
 

As far as the Astros things goes, depending on what happens with FA we could be right there with them in terms of stacking our 2 rosters. We are not as far away as you make it seem. About 3/4 players away, which we can acquire by F/A and trade. Plus for pitchers their agents are not ignorant to the fact that our ball park inflated our pitchers numbers last year. Just look at the home/road split with a guy like Lyles.

[Can_of_corn]

3 hours ago, interloper said:

Another thing that has hampered the O's in the past has been that they weren't willing to give out these aggressive opt-outs. That remains to be seen with the Elias regime. 

But I don't know if I agree that it's just about money. Sure, if the O's wildly overpay they will get their guy. But if they overpay a little bit, and the Astros are coming in with a little less, that player is going to the Astros almost certainly. 

Sure, Texas doesn't have State income tax.  That's worth a couple points right there.

[Frobby]

7 hours ago, RZNJ said:

I said I preferred Rodon but if we can't get a #1 I'm ok getting two #3 types.  You said that seemed like a waste of time. I don't agree.  I also mentioned we could trade for a TOR.  As always it depends on the cost and if they are even available. 

BTW, was Framber Valdez considered a #1 entering this year?  The Astros sure didn't win the WS because of Justin Verlander who blew a big lead in game 1.

I’ve always thought the whole “you have to have a stud at the top of the rotation to win the WS” argument was overstated.  Does it help?  Of course.  But I watched the Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz teams and the Hudson/Mulder/Zito teams fizzle many, many times in the postseason.   Not to mention the Verlander/Price/Scherzer team that lost to the 2014 Orioles.  

The other thing I’ll say is that some teams actually develop an ace themselves without buying one in free agency.  Maybe Grayson Rodriguez is Josh Beckett in a couple of years.   
 

[btdart20]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I’ve always thought the whole “you have to have a stud at the top of the rotation to win the WS” argument was overstated.  Does it help?  Of course.  But I watched the Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz teams and the Hudson/Mulder/Zito teams fizzle many, many times in the postseason.   Not to mention the Verlander/Price/Scherzer team that lost to the 2014 Orioles.  

The other thing I’ll say is that some teams actually develop an ace themselves without buying one in free agency.  Maybe Grayson Rodriguez is Josh Beckett in a couple of years.   
 

Giving up less runs is half of the equation to any specific game (or games in general).  Pitchers who can go multiple innings and give up very few runs tend to be costly studs.  

They're obviously a playoff Fizzle-Puff factor at play.  A stud may fizzle under stress where JAG puffs up his chest under stress.  Maybe there's a Myers-Brigg/DISC personality test Elias can use to find the Puffs like water witching?

[Just Regular]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

The other thing I’ll say is that some teams actually develop an ace themselves without buying one in free agency.  Maybe Grayson Rodriguez is Josh Beckett in a couple of years.  

Heck, maybe he's been Josh Beckett the past couple years, only we don't know because...you know.

Slow cooking, plus covid, plus injuries - he's kind of walked the entire daydream spectrum.    Year 1 was kind of like - promising HS arm, let's see if it detonates in the teenage years.    Then like, holding together - if he was a Marlin he might get to try the Jose Fernandez things.    By this spring, he'd put in the equivalent of his NCAA seasons, so now its kind of a Stephen Strasburg spring.

Then they just don't use him, lat strain, rust...now he's....Year 2 Stephen Strasburg with all his homo sapien talent intact as the elbow hasn't blown up yet?     And force plates at the Bel Air pitching lab, in Sarasota, everywhere!

Not sure if there are nano sensors in his arm yet, or if his '23 pitching script says to make it six months we're only going to let you go twice through the order all season.     That could make showing Cole or Manoah who's boss tricky.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Just Regular