Top 10 is done..No Intl prospects

[Can_of_corn]

It's carrying water to suggest that it would be acceptable to wait a decade to have guys making a significant impact.

It's nonsense to state the international program started when Elias took over.

Was I incorrect when I said "The current top 10 is dominated by high draft picks.  That's not a viable strategy going forward.  They need to start getting results from the International market and trades."?

Was I incorrect when I said "But it is a concern and not what you want to see. "

 

My comments in this thread were not over the top. 

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

What I’d like to see is a DSL team that is .500 or better with an average age no older than the league as a whole.  That will tell me we’re getting our share of the talent.   

That said, there’s a handful of interesting guys who played in the DSL, FCL or Delmarva last year.   It will get easier to tell how we’re doing as time goes along.  
 

Record in those games doesn't mean anything to me.  Age does a bit.

I'd be pretty OK with a few legitimate prospects and a bunch of warm bodies with the occasional overachiever.

I'm not sure a winning record in that league, or anywhere in the minors really, translates to producing ML talent.

[RarityFlaherty]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Technically the Orioles International effort started decades ago.

Yes the effort was the worst in the league but don't go saying it was non-existent.

But does the fact that it wasn’t completely non-existent even really help considering how bad it was? Who’s the best player we’ve developed internationally? Johnathan Scoop? If I were an international prospect, I would be wary of signing with a team with that has had so little success developing guys. We might have been better off if we hadn’t started trying until Elias got here because at least we wouldn’t have such a garbage track record.

I do agree with you that it shouldn’t take a decade to get it going, but I’m definitely not ready to be concerned about it yet. 

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, RarityFlaherty said:

But does the fact that it wasn’t completely non-existent even really help considering how bad it was? Who’s the best player we’ve developed internationally? Johnathan Scoop? If I were an international prospect, I would be wary of signing with a team with that has had so little success developing guys. We might have been better off if we hadn’t started trying until Elias got here because at least we wouldn’t have such a garbage track record.

I do agree with you that it shouldn’t take a decade to get it going, but I’m definitely not ready to be concerned about it yet. 

Assuming they are good at developing guys yea it should make a difference.

No one in the top 10 isn't where you want to be.

I'm not the one ranting here, I'm not suggesting it's currently a huge deal.

I just said it's not what you want and got kinda attacked for it.

[interloper]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Technically the Orioles International effort started decades ago.

That's just not truthful and you know it.

It is complete BS to try and spin this as something that takes a DECADE to do.

1. Please.

2. Yes it absolutely is. The Orioles have never been truly involved in the Latin American market.

3. Factually true that it takes teams this long to establish relationships, get to the point where big dollar signings are possible, have those 16 yr old kids filter up to the high minors and become top 10 prospects. 

The fact that you think these types of signings ought to be top 10 (!!) prospects is patently ridiculous. Just an absolute pipe dream of wild proportions. 

But keep telling me I'm a liar and a pollyanna, it's par for the course from you. Immediate attacks whenever I post basically. Get bent dude. 

[RarityFlaherty]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Assuming they are good at developing guys yea it should make a difference.

No one in the top 10 isn't where you want to be.

I'm not the one ranting here, I'm not suggesting it's currently a huge deal.

I just said it's not what you want and got kinda attacked for it.

Yeah I don’t think it’s a huge deal, but you’re right that it’s not what you want.  I think we just need to be patient though. Most of the big international signings by Elias are still only around 18 years old.
 

My main point is just that the decades of trying before Elias got here didn’t necessarily help him get it going. And it could actually be holding us back for a little bit, so it’ll require some extra patience to really see how well Elias and team are doing. 

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

It's carrying water to suggest that it would be acceptable to wait a decade to have guys making a significant impact.

It's nonsense to state the international program started when Elias took over.

Was I incorrect when I said "The current top 10 is dominated by high draft picks.  That's not a viable strategy going forward.  They need to start getting results from the International market and trades."?

Was I incorrect when I said "But it is a concern and not what you want to see. "

 

My comments in this thread were not over the top. 

Everything you said above seems reasonable to me EXCEPT the International program did start with Elias.    Sure, there was something in place.  We did sign international players.    BUT, everyone, including you, know that we did not have a "normal" presence down there.   No real organization down there.   That didn't start until Elias came on board.

Edited November 21, 2022 by RZNJ

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

It's carrying water to suggest that it would be acceptable to wait a decade to have guys making a significant impact.

It's nonsense to state the international program started when Elias took over.

Was I incorrect when I said "The current top 10 is dominated by high draft picks.  That's not a viable strategy going forward.  They need to start getting results from the International market and trades."?

Was I incorrect when I said "But it is a concern and not what you want to see. "

 

My comments in this thread were not over the top. 

I do not think it should take a decade to see some results.  Obviously, it does take multiple years to first build a pipeline and second have the products of that pipeline reach the major leagues.  If you happen to find a Juan Soto, maybe it takes a little less than is normally expected.  

I’m not too bothered that we don’t have an international prospect in our top 10.  Our top 10 is very strong compared to most teams and I dare say that Basallo would be in the top 10 for most teams.  I’m a little more bothered that we may not see another international guy until the list gets into the 20s.
 

[Can_of_corn]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Everything you said above seems reasonable to me EXCEPT the International program did start with Elias.    Sure, there was something in place.  We did sign international players.    BUT, everyone, including you, know that we did not have a "normal" presence down there.   No real organization down there.   That didn't start until Elias came on board.

I think it's very unkind to call the folks down there, who I've never heard were not hard working and competent a nothing presence.

Yes they were underfunded but they were down there, they were doing the work.

Even a bare bones organization is rather better than actually nothing.

[RZNJ]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think it's very unkind to call the folks down there, who I've never heard were not hard working and competent a nothing presence.

Yes they were underfunded but they were down there, they were doing the work.

Even a bare bones organization is rather better than actually nothing.

I didn't say the people down there weren't working hard or were incompetent.   Give me a break.   EVERYONE is baseball says the ORIOLES ORGANIZATION had a minimal presence in Latin America for years.   That changed when Elias took over.    I also didn't say they had a "nothing presence".   I said they didn't have a "normal presence".   Nice try trying to twist my words into something they weren't.    

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, RZNJ said:

I didn't say the people down there weren't working hard or were incompetent.   Give me a break.   EVERYONE is baseball says the ORIOLES ORGANIZATION had a minimal presence in Latin America for years.   That changed when Elias took over.    I also didn't say they had a "nothing presence".   I said they didn't have a "normal presence".   Nice try trying to twist my words into something they weren't.    

I wasn't referencing you.

 

[waroriole]

The lack of international prospects in the Top 10 bothers me much less than the lack of pitching throughout our top prospect list. 

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I wasn't referencing you.

 

You did quote my post and say all that stuff.  No?

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

You did quote my post and say all that stuff.  No?

Yep.

But you weren't crying.

[Tony-OH]

I'm not sure some people really know how much of a crap shoot this current system is over there. Players have to be recruited and agreements have to made at 14-years old, sometimes 15 years old for the top guys.

Do you realize how much projection it takes to know which one of these 14 and 15 years old will be able to handle professional level offspeed pitches or be have the aptitude to throw multiple quality pitches competitively?

Sure, there may be the few obvious guys, but a lot of those "obvious" guys have flamed out long before the majors. It's hard enough to know which 18-21 year olds will do well, which is why there are so many flame outs in the 1st round through the years, now drop another 4-7 years off that.

This place needs a draft like yesterday.

Saying all that, one of the two (Basallo) of the first big money players could be an impact guy at the major league level and I could have easily put him in the top 10 if I was going off more of a ceiling. 

But to show the inexact science, Hernandez, who has been a total flame out with the bat, was more highly thought of nationally and was even a top 50 international prospect by MLBpipeline.com. 

Meanwhile, in that same class (late signee) Bencosme has developed later and is now a Top-20 prospect in a pretty deep minor league system.

So if we start with the first class of high value signings (Basallo/Hernandez class) for the Orioles, which were made up of what would have been high school juniors in the states, they already have two of them in the top 20 and one could be an impact guy.

So yeah, I'm going to go out and say that it's way too early to give a grade to the International scouting but I think the early output is pretty decent. 

BTW, that doesn't even touch on guys like Braylin Tavera, Aron Estrada, and maybe even a Jean Mata who have potential and could be in the top 20 next year with good years in the FCL.