“Lessen the pressure on Stowers and Vavra”

[wildcard]

38 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

What significance does that have? We are talking about outbidding other teams in multi year deals.  

I didn't get the multi year part.  I thought you were saying that the O's probably would not win a bidding war.

[eddie83]

18 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

He didn't say he was unwilling to trade prospects or regulars.  He said there are reasons not to do so.  He also said he didn't want to block prospects.   In my book, if Urias is the starting 2B, then he's blocking Westburg.   Something's gotta give.

I give up.
 

What I see is fans who see what they want to see. Urias has value but he is not getting a top starter on his own.  
 

For better or worse Elias has been transparent about this rebuild. People hear the word liftoff, or hear talk about adding payroll and have dreams of the Orioles out bidding teams. 
 

I think he sincerely was looking to add someone whom he considered to be a #3 type starter. He had to be willing to offer 3 years. It’s been a sellers market so far and there is no evidence he is willing to up his offers. We can all speculate what the rest of the available arms go for. He isn’t going to give someone a 4th year. Seems obvious.  
 

Could things change on the trade market? Of course. He certainly as of now doesn’t seem to be heading down that road. 

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I didn't get the multi year part.  I thought you were saying that the O's probably would not win a bidding war.

Ok. Yes. I don’t think as of now they will be participating to be honest.  

[Just Regular]

15 minutes ago, wildcard said:

According to Gibson it was 2 1/2 weeks of back and forth.  Sounds like a bidding war that the O's won because they sold him on the O's direction.

Don't forget the inestimable Opening Day carrot.    See, Kevin Gausman and Alek Manoah can be a drag on a roster.

[wildcard]

24 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

If he isn’t willing to deal prospects and regulars they who is he getting ? Everything in life is a possibility.  
 

I think he still signs a FA pitcher to a multi year deal. Question is whether the pitcher is going to be someone at the level people hoped for and/or consider to be a #3?

Elias has mentioned buy side trades.   I take that to mean trading for a player with an expensive contract that a team is trying to unload.  The player that O's would give up is someone on the level of Prieto is my guess.

[Sports Guy]

How do young players earn a spot?

1) The excel in the minors.  Stowers did that.

2) They show that they can handle pitching from both righties and lefties.  Stowers did that.

3) They come to the majors and perform. In a down offensive environment, had a 724 OPS and did that while basically never having a chance to hit lefties, where he did well in the minors.

So, he has basically done everything asked of any young player to earn time and he's doing it on a team that doesn't want to spend and has a need for power, youth and OF help.

So, the idea that he isn't on the level of Gunnar or Adley or anything like that is just poor. The level that he is on is, I have nothing left to prove in the minors, I am an asset and I should get significant playing time.  Its not, well we need another lefty to take pressure off of him. That's total crap.

[Tony-OH]

30 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Did Elias use the term “less pressure” or is that Roch’s interpretation?   Either way, I agree it’s pretty clear the O’s don’t want to rely on Stowers and Vavra.   I can’t tell if they just don’t believe in them, or whether they’re just risk-averse here with two players who could be solid offensively but aren’t seen as sure things in the way that Adley and Gunnar are.  

There are very few "sure things" like Adley and Gunnar so at some point the team has to decide if they think a player's minor league production an skills will translate. 

The absolute only way to know if a player can hit major league pitching though is by playing them regularly at the major league level. This is why I shrug my shoulders when I see people on this board trying to judge Stowers off his stats last year with the Orioles when he was criminally sat on the bench in favor of playing a washed up Aguilar.

I don't think stow4ers and Vavra are the same kinds of players. In my mind Stowers is an everyday guy that should be used that way next year between RF, LF on occasion, and DH along with Santander.

[DrinkinWithFermi]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Elias picked Gibson over Lyles because he thinks the O's can make him better.   Gibson had a 2.87 ERA in 19 starts in 2121 in Texas before he was traded to Philly.  That is the results the O's are trying to find from him.  Earned him an All-Star selection.  So there is a chance Gidson could be good.  We will have to see what happens.

None of that is relevant to what I said. His 2021 outlier doesn't negate his decade long track record of not being good.

18 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Reasonable conclusions are not always correct.    You have the data that's available.  All of the data will be available at a later date.

Astronomers once thought the sun revolved around the earth based on available data.  Seemed reasonable at the time.

Sure, which is why I didn't say "this is definitely 100% for sure what will happen." We'll see, although I would imagine most teams are pretty locked into their general offseason strategies by now, but maybe someone will shift directions and throw in the towel on 2023.

16 minutes ago, turtlebowl said:

It all has a balance.  After Kjerstad was drafted they said that he was the best left handed power bat in the draft.  So if you are projecting a guy to be a 30 to 40 HR guy you would probably accept average defense as a corner outfielder.  Now maybe they look at Stowers as a 25HR guy that bats .250 and has a .320 OBP in his prime.  I think most of us would say that is a valuable player to have.  All I'm saying is they must feel that offensive output isn't good enough to support the opportunity to play every day because they feel his defense will always be average or below.  In comparison if they view Cowsers offensive ceiling is at or even a little less than Stowers my guess is they will have no issue writing his name in the lineup everyday when he does come up.  

This is not what you originally said, which is what I was responding to.

[Just Regular]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Elias has mentioned buy side trades.   I take that to mean trading for a player with an expensive contract that a team is trying to unload.  The player that O's would give up is someone on the level of Prieto is my guess.

Ramon Urias for Eduardo Rodriguez....close the circle!     Opening Day in Fenway, Eduardo v. Sale.

[Pickles]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

How do young players earn a spot?

1) The excel in the minors.  Stowers did that.

2) They show that they can handle pitching from both righties and lefties.  Stowers did that.

3) They come to the majors and perform. In a down offensive environment, had a 724 OPS and did that while basically never having a chance to hit lefties, where he did well in the minors.

So, he has basically done everything asked of any young player to earn time and he's doing it on a team that doesn't want to spend and has a need for power, youth and OF help.

So, the idea that he isn't on the level of Gunnar or Adley or anything like that is just poor. The level that he is on is, I have nothing left to prove in the minors, I am an asset and I should get significant playing time.  Its not, well we need another lefty to take pressure off of him. That's total crap.

Where's the evidence he isn't going to get significant playing time?

[Stram]

1 hour ago, forphase1 said:

Ah yes, the 'feel good vibes' and veteranosity.  I don't guess I can argue real facts against that sort of logic.    And I suppose while we remember Gunnar and Vavra making mistakes with the glove, we conveniently forget the NUMBEROUS times that Odor screwed up with the glove also.  But I digress I suppose...back to fairly tale land where feelings, rainbows and sunshine win championships!  

This is true - you play the best players. All of the other talk about the clubhouse and whatnot is just noise and distraction. The most talented and best players have to play. 

[wildcard]

17 minutes ago, Frobby said:

To me a bidding war implies a decidion made purely on who offers the most money.  Obviously, that’s not what this was.  But whatever you call it, we won a competition for Gibson’s services based on non-monetary factors that could apply to other pitchers as well, which is a positive for the organization.  

To each his own but I don't know why a bidding war has to be who offered the most money.  A bidding war to me is when two clubs go after the same player and negotiate for a period of time and the player  picks the most attractive offer.  Does have to be money.  Could be a better defense or coaching staff or even a more attractive home park.

[eddie83]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

How do young players earn a spot?

1) The excel in the minors.  Stowers did that.

2) They show that they can handle pitching from both righties and lefties.  Stowers did that.

3) They come to the majors and perform. In a down offensive environment, had a 724 OPS and did that while basically never having a chance to hit lefties, where he did well in the minors.

So, he has basically done everything asked of any young player to earn time and he's doing it on a team that doesn't want to spend and has a need for power, youth and OF help.

So, the idea that he isn't on the level of Gunnar or Adley or anything like that is just poor. The level that he is on is, I have nothing left to prove in the minors, I am an asset and I should get significant playing time.  Its not, well we need another lefty to take pressure off of him. That's total crap.

If he was on the level of Adley and Gunnar then why wasn’t he a top 100 prospect? If you are sincere about wanting to win why would you be against depth? Has every player who has nothing to prove at AAA all worked out? 
 

Are the Orioles going to develop the Big Orange Machine with 9 starters all being drafted by the organization? 
 

The mistake with Stowers isn’t adding depth it would be dealing him away and he becomes great elsewhere. Signing another bat as depth/insurance is not a big deal. 

[clapdiddy]

4 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

Ramon Urias for Eduardo Rodriguez....close the circle!     Opening Day in Fenway, Eduardo v. Sale.

This would be kind of interesting, but would we want to take a chance on him?   The contract isn't horrible, and he has an opt out after 2023.

[eddie83]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

To each his own but I don't know why a bidding war has to be who offered the most money.  A bidding war to me is when two clubs go after the same player and negotiate for a period of time and the player  picks the most attractive offer.  Does have to be money.  Could be a better defense or coaching staff or even a more attractive home park.

Two men are in love with the same woman. Both have similar personalities and intelligence. Both are kind. 
 

One is great looking, one is not. If the woman picks the great looking guy is it a bidding war?