Early spring bullpen thoughts

[Tony-OH]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You could argue it but it’s a terrible argument imo.

He needs innings. He needs to pitch. He needs routine. This is a guy who has a total of 315 pro innings in 6 seasons.

Coming Here to throw a few innings here and there isn’t enough. If he ends up in the pen, that’s fine. It is what it is. Right now, he needs to start, work on all his pitches and throw innings. 

He can go to the pen and live off of a few pitches and get away with off command pitching out of the pen because his stuff will be that good.

Have him start and see how he develops. See if he can stay healthy.

The upside of this team goes way up if he can reach his ceiling.

Here's where I'm at with Hall. I think his best value at the major league level is as an impact late inning reliever. At the end of the day, he's never been able to hold up and coming into this season with back woes for me is the final straw. 

He does have the repertoire of a starter, but we only saw flashes of that last year and when we did, he still needed a lot of pitch to get into the 5th inning. 

When you combine has lack of ability to command consistently, and his various health woes, I think it's time to make that transition.

Now, if you can trade him to a team that views him as a future TOR, by all means, move him, but I think he's a guy who will have a very long career in the pen as an impact left-handed reliever. He has value in that right now, and I really don't know how many more bullets he should waste in the minors trying to find the consistency of command that he's never had. 

He's 24 and half years old and is ready to pitch in the pen at the major league level. Between him, a healthy Bautista, Givens, Wells, Perez and Baker, that's a lot of heat and guys that can miss bats late in games.

[RZNJ]

There is virtually no one in baseball who thinks it’s likely that D.L. Hall becomes a #1 or #2 starter.   Let the kid get his feet wet in the majors as a reliever  and go from there.   

[RZNJ]

6 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Hall can reach his ceiling if he relieves and has success.   See Chris Sales. See Corbin Burnes.    Going to AAA and dominating AAA hitters?   He’s done that at times.  It proves nothing.    Building up innings.  That’s BS.  Is he going to gain more confidence dominating AAA hitters or being effective for 1-2 innings against ML hitters?   It’s a no brainer.   And if he can’t be effective for 1-2 innings against ML hitters no amount of AAA starts is going to help.

Fine.  Let’s see you laugh at Tony’s post too. LOL

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

Here's where I'm at with Hall. I think his best value at the major league level is as an impact late inning reliever. At the end of the day, he's never been able to hold up and coming into this season with back woes for me is the final straw. 

He does have the repertoire of a starter, but we only saw flashes of that last year and when we did, he still needed a lot of pitch to get into the 5th inning. 

When you combine has lack of ability to command consistently, and his various health woes, I think it's time to make that transition.

Now, if you can trade him to a team that views him as a future TOR, by all means, move him, but I think he's a guy who will have a very long career in the pen as an impact left-handed reliever. He has value in that right now, and I really don't know how many more bullets he should waste in the minors trying to find the consistency of command that he's never had. 

He's 24 and half years old and is ready to pitch in the pen at the major league level. Between him, a healthy Bautista, Givens, Wells, Perez and Baker, that's a lot of heat and guys that can miss bats late in games.

Right..you are basically writing him off being a starter. To me, that’s foolish.  
 

What is funny about this is thought is that you were definitive that Bradish was a reliever. You have been shown to be wrong about that, as most people have.

Part of the reason for this is that this organization has done a good job developing him and honing him in some. 

They have made Kremer a viable starter. 

Why would you not give more time for Hall, a player who is definitively more talented than those guys and likely has a higher ceiling than GRod.

 I can even get behind the idea that it’s likely he ends up in the pen, I mean after all, that’s the most likely scenario for basically any prospect especially one that has had his issues 

But to write that off now and basically end the starter experiment for an organization that has very little in terms of starting pitching just makes zero sense to me.

[RZNJ]

Bradish and Kremer could throw strikes and could actually pitch a full season in the minors.   Also, if Hall can sharpen his command as a reliever against actual ML hitters there’s no reason they couldn’t attempt to have him start again.  Chris Sale made 79 relief appearances before he ever started a ML game.  He went from 78 IP to 6 straight years of averaging 200 IP a year.    

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Bradish and Kremer could throw strikes and could actually pitch a full season in the minors.   Also, if Hall can sharpen his command as a reliever against actual ML hitters there’s no reason they couldn’t attempt to have him start again.  Chris Sale made 79 relief appearances before he ever started a ML game.  He went from 78 IP to 6 straight years of averaging 200 IP a year.    

Bradish had a walk rate of 4 in the minors.  That’s not really that good especially since a lot of that came in the lower minors at an advanced age.

He also didn’t have the pitches and took a lot of pitches to get through starts. These are issues that the Os have helped with and helped develop.

 

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Bradish had a walk rate of 4 in the minors.  That’s not really that good especially since a lot of that came in the lower minors at an advanced age.

He also didn’t have the pitches and took a lot of pitches to get through starts. These are issues that the Os have helped with and helped develop.

 

Bradish is figuring things out at the ML level.  Things he didn’t have to figure out in AAA or couldn’t figure out because he could succeed with what he had.   I’m suggesting Hall do the same thing but start as a reliever because I think his command/control curve is steeper than Bradish’s was. I think Hall gains very little by going to AAA.

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Bradish is figuring things out at the ML level.  Things he didn’t have to figure out in AAA or couldn’t figure out because he could succeed with what he had.   I’m suggesting Hall do the same thing but start as a reliever because I think his command/control curve is steeper than Bradish’s was. I think Hall gains very little by going to AAA.

I don’t think he figures it out pitching 1-2 innings at a time and if he’s the long reliever, he will be lucky to pitch more than once a week. He needs more experience and innings. 300 innings spread out over 6 years is nothing.

You reference Burnes earlier. He had 145 innings in one MiL season. That matters. 
 

If there was a concerted effort to pitch Hall in multiple 3-4 inning stints a week, I could see that but I highly doubt that would work out that way.

[RZNJ]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t think he figures it out pitching 1-2 innings at a time and if he’s the long reliever, he will be lucky to pitch more than once a week. He needs more experience and innings. 300 innings spread out over 6 years is nothing.

You reference Burnes earlier. He had 145 innings in one MiL season. That matters. 
 

If there was a concerted effort to pitch Hall in multiple 3-4 inning stints a week, I could see that but I highly doubt that would work out that way.

I’ll agree to disagree.  Pitching 2-3 times a week as a setup guy will give him great experience.  He’ll be able to concentrate on throwing 2-3 pitches for strikes and that he needs to locate pitches to get ML hitters out.  He won’t learn that in AAA.    Elias and team have been here 4 years.  Hall walked 5.8/9 in AAA and hasn’t pitched over 100 innings in that time.   You want to continue on that course?

[Sports Guy]

22 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I’ll agree to disagree.  Pitching 2-3 times a week as a setup guy will give him great experience.  He’ll be able to concentrate on throwing 2-3 pitches for strikes and that he needs to locate pitches to get ML hitters out.  He won’t learn that in AAA.    Elias and team have been here 4 years.  Hall walked 5.8/9 in AAA and hasn’t pitched over 100 innings in that time.   You want to continue on that course?

Yes, I want him to continue to have no command or control.  

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Right..you are basically writing him off being a starter. To me, that’s foolish.  
 

What is funny about this is thought is that you were definitive that Bradish was a reliever. You have been shown to be wrong about that, as most people have.

Part of the reason for this is that this organization has done a good job developing him and honing him in some. 

They have made Kremer a viable starter. 

Why would you not give more time for Hall, a player who is definitively more talented than those guys and likely has a higher ceiling than GRod.

 I can even get behind the idea that it’s likely he ends up in the pen, I mean after all, that’s the most likely scenario for basically any prospect especially one that has had his issues 

But to write that off now and basically end the starter experiment for an organization that has very little in terms of starting pitching just makes zero sense to me.

It's not foolish, you are just doing you Sports guy thing of digging in your heels and no changing no matter how much evidence you are given. 

I'm not wasting my time debating with you when you start off saying things like "It's foolish!"

As for Bradish, his change of repertoire has helped him become a starter. The guy I saw in Bowie was a reliever at best. He's a different pitcher thanks to some great development and his hard work. He never had the command issues Hall has nor the injury history. the two things I brought up as facts.

 

[spleen1015]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

It's not foolish, you are just doing you Sports guy thing of digging in your heels and no changing no matter how much evidence you are given. 

Isn't this both sides of every debate on the internet? 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

It's not foolish, you are just doing you Sports guy thing of digging in your heels and no changing no matter how much evidence you are given. 

I'm not wasting my time debating with you when you start off saying things like "It's foolish!"

As for Bradish, his change of repertoire has helped him become a starter. The guy I saw in Bowie was a reliever at best. He's a different pitcher thanks to some great development and his hard work. He never had the command issues Hall has nor the injury history. the two things I brought up as facts.

 

Lol..oh I’m sorry. I guess you are being completely open minded and not digging your heels in and listening to what others are saying.

Tony please, you are in a house surrounded by glass. Stop throwing stones.

Oh, so Bradish changed. Guess Hall can’t do that. Got it.  

[eddie83]

My guess is they start Hall at AAA but if the pen starts leaking oil they bring him up. 
 

To me they are at a different place now. I can see logic in trying to extend him out at AAA but if they are contending and they need him then bring him up. 

[Sports Guy]

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