How does Westburg get playing time vs RHP?

[forphase1]

18 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I respect your opinion and right to have one. But the consensus of the scouting community/ talent evaluators don't see things as you do. In most prospect rankings, they are not particularly closely rated as players. 

The latest mlb ranking has Westburg at 34 and Ortiz at 67.  And that's out of I don't know how many overall prospects there are,  100s or 1000s, depending on what you call a prospect.  Ortiz has also been shooting up the Os ranking,  going from #16 to #5 from last year to this year while Westburg went from 5th to 3rd, due to Gunnar and Grayson being removed from the lists.   The gap between the two isn't great,  IMO, with Ortiz having better glove work and Westburg being a better bat.  Ortiz has a .940ish OPS at AAA, roughly the same as Westburg.  I am not saying there is no gap,  but I think folks are overstating the difference in quality between the two.   If I was forced to trade one,  I'd probably rather keep Ortiz personally.  I really like Westburg, I just like Ortiz a tad more. 

[ChosenOne21]

9 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Urias should be more than LHP-only. I think RHB lineup is something like:

2B Frazier/Westburg

SS Gunnar/Mateo

3B Urias/Westburg

That adds up to Westburg playing perhaps half time vs RHB, with more to come if he hits and Mateo/Frazier don't.

I looked it up and Urias actually hits righties better than lefties. Westburg seems to be the reverse. Could maybe give Urias an extra start or two per week against righties at Westburg's expense

Long-term though, I think Westburg takes over the Urias role on the team

[interloper]

7 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

The latest mlb ranking has Westburg at 34 and Ortiz at 67.  And that's out of I don't know how many overall prospects there are,  100s or 1000s, depending on what you call a prospect.  Ortiz has also been shooting up the Os ranking,  going from #16 to #5 from last year to this year while Westburg went from 5th to 3rd, due to Gunnar and Grayson being removed from the lists.   The gap between the two isn't great,  IMO, with Ortiz having better glove work and Westburg being a better bat.  Ortiz has a .940ish OPS at AAA, roughly the same as Westburg.  I am not saying there is no gap,  but I think folks are overstating the difference in quality between the two.   If I was forced to trade one,  I'd probably rather keep Ortiz personally.  I really like Westburg, I just like Ortiz a tad more. 

Yep. Ortiz is a legitimate top 75 prospect in all of baseball. He and Westburg are rated extremely closely. In the end, it only matters what Elias thinks, but even so. Folks saying they aren't comparable prospects are factually wrong. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by interloper

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, forphase1 said:

The latest mlb ranking has Westburg at 34 and Ortiz at 67.  And that's out of I don't know how many overall prospects there are,  100s or 1000s, depending on what you call a prospect.  Ortiz has also been shooting up the Os ranking,  going from #16 to #5 from last year to this year while Westburg went from 5th to 3rd, due to Gunnar and Grayson being removed from the lists.   The gap between the two isn't great,  IMO, with Ortiz having better glove work and Westburg being a better bat.  Ortiz has a .940ish OPS at AAA, roughly the same as Westburg.  I am not saying there is no gap,  but I think folks are overstating the difference in quality between the two.   If I was forced to trade one,  I'd probably rather keep Ortiz personally.  I really like Westburg, I just like Ortiz a tad more. 

You may have a little blind spot for Ortiz (which is understandable) if you think the gap between 34 and 67 isn't sizeable. That's over 30 spots! And in other list like the mlb.com top 100 ranking it's similarly as wide with Westburg coming in at #46 and Ortiz at #76. In my opinion, when you get past the top 50 guys, you are dealing with very iffy 50/50 propositions on what those players will be especially when they are at the AAA level.

And to be honest, I don't care if they trade one or both, my main concern is the results that the Baltimore Orioles achieve on the field as they ultimately pursue championships. I am NOT one of those guys who is rooting for this prospect over that one. But I can also use logic and reasoning when taking into account how evaluators see certain players.

[Bemorewins]

Just now, interloper said:

Yep. Ortiz is a legitimate top 75 prospect in all of baseball. He and Westburg are rated extremely closely. In the end, it matters what Elias thinks not the prospect lists, but even so. Folks saying they aren't comparable prospects are factually wrong. 

34 and 67 are NOT close in my opinion. Nor is #76 close to #46. But to each their own, I guess?

[Aristotelian]

3 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

I looked it up and Urias actually hits righties better than lefties. Westburg seems to be the reverse. Could maybe give Urias an extra start or two per week against righties at Westburg's expense

Long-term though, I think Westburg takes over the Urias role on the team

IMO, near term he takes Frazier's job. Long term, Gunnar takes over 3B, Holliday SS. Keep Urias and Ortiz around for whatever spots open up for them. 

[interloper]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

34 and 67 are NOT close in my opinion. Nor is #76 close to #46. But to each their own, I guess?

In a top 100 list? Are you kidding? It's basically negligible. In a top 100, there are the top few guys, and there's everybody else. Each of these guys have roughly the same chance at sticking in the big leagues. The only reason Westburg is higher is because he's been healthier and performing offensively for longer. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by interloper

[Sydnor]

7 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

The latest mlb ranking has Westburg at 34 and Ortiz at 67.  And that's out of I don't know how many overall prospects there are,  100s or 1000s, depending on what you call a prospect.  Ortiz has also been shooting up the Os ranking,  going from #16 to #5 from last year to this year while Westburg went from 5th to 3rd, due to Gunnar and Grayson being removed from the lists.   The gap between the two isn't great,  IMO, with Ortiz having better glove work and Westburg being a better bat.  Ortiz has a .940ish OPS at AAA, roughly the same as Westburg.  I am not saying there is no gap,  but I think folks are overstating the difference in quality between the two.   If I was forced to trade one,  I'd probably rather keep Ortiz personally.  I really like Westburg, I just like Ortiz a tad more. 

You aren’t the only one. I also prefer Ortiz. Before the season, Fangraphs did too, ranking Ortiz 67 in their top 100 with a 50 FV, while Westburg was not ranked and given a 45 FV. Law ranked Ortiz 95 and Westburg 73. McDaniel ranked Ortiz 71 and Westburg 66, with both in the 50 FV tier. So Westburg was generally rated more highly, but I don’t think the gap is as significant as it is made out to be. Also, after you get past the top 20 or so the gap between the 30th ranked prospect and the 80th ranked prospect isn’t as significant as the gap between the 1st ranked prospect and the 10th.

[owknows]

31 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

What is he supposed to say? I would not ever expect him to say publicly that Hyde does what he is told or admit that Hyde follows instruction from him based on what's Sig's data suggest.

He could have said nothing.

It wasn't in response to a question, if I recall correctly.

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, interloper said:

In a top 100 list? Are you kidding? It's basically negligible. In a top 100, there are the top few guys, and there's everybody else. Each of these guys have roughly the same chance at sticking in the big leagues. The only reason Westburg is higher is because he's been healthier and performing offensively for longer. 

So basically what you are saying is that NONE of these objective evaluators knows anything and that the Orioles chose one over the other by some arbitrary means? 

You could be right for all I know. But is it reasonable to at least draw a rational conclusion that the consensus of the baseball talent evaluation community thinks that one is better than the other?

Again I am not advocating for one over the other, but just using objective standard to draw what I believe is a rational conclusion. It makes no difference to me which player was chosen over the other or if BOTH were traded. I choose to trust Elias talent evaluating skills over my own. The only outcome that I can about are the Ws/Ls of the Baltimore Orioles in their pursuit of becoming champions.

[forphase1]

6 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

You may have a little blind spot for Ortiz (which is understandable) if you think the gap between 34 and 67 isn't sizeable. That's over 30 spots! And in other list like the mlb.com top 100 ranking it's similarly as wide with Westburg coming in at #46 and Ortiz at #76. In my opinion, when you get past the top 50 guys, you are dealing with very iffy 50/50 propositions on what those players will be especially when they are at the AAA level.

And to be honest, I don't care if they trade one or both, my main concern is the results that the Baltimore Orioles achieve on the field as they ultimately pursue championships. I am NOT one of those guys who is rooting for this prospect over that one. But I can also use logic and reasoning when taking into account how evaluators see certain players.

When you are saying out of 1000s of prospects they are only separated by 30 slots, the difference isn't that great.  Plus Ortiz has been rapidly closing the gap between the two based on those same evaluators you are referencing.  End point being I don't get why our #5 prospect, Ortiz, was shunned, wasn't promoted on twitter, etc., and was treated as a nobody, while our #3 prospect is getting the red carpet treatment.  Maybe Elias, like you apparently, vastly favors Westburg over Ortiz.  But industry wide Ortiz was coming on strong, and was certainly rated much closer to Westburg than he was previously.  They are different players, with different strengths, with Westburg having a bit more power and Ortiz being better with the glove, but I won't be surprised at all to look 10 years down the road and find that Ortiz has had a better career.

All that said I want Westburg to succeed.  He's here, so let the man play!  Wishing that Ortiz would have had the same opportunity does not mean I wish Westburg to fail.  For me I'd have them both on the team, replacing Mateo and Frazier.  But....    

[owknows]

37 minutes ago, deward said:

It wouldn't do anyone any good for Elias to publicly emasculate his manager by telling the world that he's not in charge of his own lineups. He may not even do anything as blunt as giving him marching orders - they've worked together long enough now that Hyde should understand Elias' expectations and be on the same page. I doubt this call-up happened without plenty of conversations about how to use Westburg; Hyde knows what the boss is hoping to see.

Elias was neither pumping up, or emasculating his manager.

He volunteered the roles unsolicited.

I take him at his word.

 

[Malike]

Scouting grades: Hit: 50 | Power: 50 | Run: 45 | Arm: 55 | Field: 65 | Overall: 55

Scouting grades: Hit: 45 | Power: 55 | Run: 55 | Arm: 55 | Field: 55 | Overall: 55

Doesn't seem like that massive of a gap to me.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Malike

[glenn__davis]

12 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

34 and 67 are NOT close in my opinion. Nor is #76 close to #46. But to each their own, I guess?

On prospect lists I'd say that's not negligible but pretty darn close.  I think most evaluators would tell you that after the top 15 or so you could probably rate the next 50 in any sort of order depending on what your preference is.

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

When you are saying out of 1000s of prospects they are only separated by 30 slots, the difference isn't that great.  Plus Ortiz has been rapidly closing the gap between the two based on those same evaluators you are referencing.  End point being I don't get why our #5 prospect, Ortiz, was shunned, wasn't promoted on twitter, etc., and was treated as a nobody, while our #3 prospect is getting the red carpet treatment.  Maybe Elias, like you apparently, vastly favors Westburg over Ortiz.  But industry wide Ortiz was coming on strong, and was certainly rated much closer to Westburg than he was previously.  They are different players, with different strengths, with Westburg having a bit more power and Ortiz being better with the glove, but I won't be surprised at all to look 10 years down the road and find that Ortiz has had a better career.

All that said I want Westburg to succeed.  He's here, so let the man play!  Wishing that Ortiz would have had the same opportunity does not mean I wish Westburg to fail.  For me I'd have them both on the team, replacing Mateo and Frazier.  But....    

And you may get that wish one day. Who knows? I honestly don’t care about which one is better or how close they are. The Orioles made a choice based on what they believe which we all know is backed up by science/data and professional opinion/evaluation. I that people who are professional at something who have experienced a lot of success at something, know what they are doing. It doesn’t mean that they are infallible or that they can’t be wrong. But it means that they have earned some benefit of the doubt from me.