The Brewers as Trade Partners

[Jammer7]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

I am just not that interested in trading four years of control for one.   That puts too many eggs in the 2024 basket IMO.

I understand, it is a gamble. It really only would make the most sense if the Orioles would give him an extension, and there is no reason to believe Angelos will do that. Even if we cannot reach an extension, I think he’ll bring enough in his contract year to make it worth it in some me ways. Buys a year for Bradish and Rodriguez to further grow. Gives us a legit shot at going deep into playoff contention. 

There are no guarantees that Kremer will be healthy, or any pitcher. Kremer’s production will be easier to replicate with what we have in house, or with free agents.

The package I was talking about was for Burnes and Williams. It’s a pipe dream, I know. 

[Roll Tide]

53 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

I understand, it is a gamble. It really only would make the most sense if the Orioles would give him an extension, and there is no reason to believe Angelos will do that. Even if we cannot reach an extension, I think he’ll bring enough in his contract year to make it worth it in some me ways. Buys a year for Bradish and Rodriguez to further grow. Gives us a legit shot at going deep into playoff contention. 

There are no guarantees that Kremer will be healthy, or any pitcher. Kremer’s production will be easier to replicate with what we have in house, or with free agents.

The package I was talking about was for Burnes and Williams. It’s a pipe dream, I know. 

You kid right? Kremer started 32 games and 170ish innings. His ERA was Who 4.12 not 5 or 6. Who do we have in house that you could count in for that? Irvin? Voth? 
 

The answer is nobody! Talk about seriously undervaluing Kremer!

Edited November 12, 2023 by Roll Tide

[Frobby]

30 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

You kid right? Kremer started 32 games and 170ish innings. His ERA was Who 4.12 not 5 or 6. Who do we have in house that you could count in for that? Irvin? Voth? 
 

The answer is nobody! Talk about seriously undervaluing Kremer!

I think Irvin is kind of underrated.  He averaged 180 innings with a 4.11 ERA in 2021-22.   He threw to a 3.22 ERA after returning to the O’s on June 10.   I wouldn’t be shocked if he could put up Kremeresque numbers.  

[24fps]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I think Irvin is kind of underrated.  He averaged 180 innings with a 4.11 ERA in 2021-22.   He threw to a 3.22 ERA after returning to the O’s on June 10.   I wouldn’t be shocked if he could put up Kremeresque numbers.  

He's also Arb 1 this year so he's cheap and he still has an option left.  I get that Irvin doesn't get too many people here excited, but I also think he's underrated - not to mention useful.   Bradish, Rodriguez, Means, Kremer and adding a solid SP with Wells and Irvin as backups makes for a credible rotation.

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

I think Irvin is kind of underrated.  He averaged 180 innings with a 4.11 ERA in 2021-22.   He threw to a 3.22 ERA after returning to the O’s on June 10.   I wouldn’t be shocked if he could put up Kremeresque numbers.  

What was Kremer’s ERA for the season if you get rid of those 5 April starts that were just awful- 23 innings 22 runs? 152.2 innings / 57? Somewhere around 3.00 ? Irvin in the AL East? 

[Jammer7]

5 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

You kid right? Kremer started 32 games and 170ish innings. His ERA was Who 4.12 not 5 or 6. Who do we have in house that you could count in for that? Irvin? Voth? 
 

The answer is nobody! Talk about seriously undervaluing Kremer!

Well, as Ftobby already stated, Irvin is a possibility. Wells says Hello. Is DL Hall a starter? How about McDermott, Povich, Zimm, Davidson, Armbruester, or others Elias will pick up under the radar? It is difficult to know about what they have behind the curtain. Or the FA route with resigning Kyle Gibson. Lorenzen is another guy that intrigues me, depending on his price. There are several others.

I do not undervalue Kremer. You have to give up value to get it back. I doubt we’ll get Burnes, but we have the pieces to go get him. Kremer included in the deal limits the prospect capital you would have to send back.

The postseason is tournament baseball. Burnes makes us better, a lot better, than Kremer. That is the bottom line for me. 101 wins us great, but 0-3 was a kick in the groin. 

[Jammer7]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

What was Kremer’s ERA for the season if you get rid of those 5 April starts that were just awful- 23 innings 22 runs? 152.2 innings / 57? Somewhere around 3.00 ? Irvin in the AL East? 

You cannot cherry-pick like that. He’s a solid 3, that is it. He’s improved, absolutely. But he is replaced easily. 

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

You cannot cherry-pick like that. He’s a solid 3, that is it. He’s improved, absolutely. But he is replaced easily. 

No ? Well in @Frobbyresponse he discusses Irvin’s performance after June 10. So obviously there is a double standard. 

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

Well, as Ftobby already stated, Irvin is a possibility. Wells says Hello. Is DL Hall a starter? How about McDermott, Povich, Zimm, Davidson, Armbruester, or others Elias will pick up under the radar? It is difficult to know about what they have behind the curtain. Or the FA route with resigning Kyle Gibson. Lorenzen is another guy that intrigues me, depending on his price. There are several others.

I do not undervalue Kremer. You have to give up value to get it back. I doubt we’ll get Burnes, but we have the pieces to go get him. Kremer included in the deal limits the prospect capital you would have to send back.

The postseason is tournament baseball. Burnes makes us better, a lot better, than Kremer. That is the bottom line for me. 101 wins us great, but 0-3 was a kick in the groin. 

Frobby ….. He threw to a 3.22 ERA after returning to the O’s on June 10.   I wouldn’t be shocked if he could put up Kremeresque numbers.  
 

Shocked doesn’t = easily replaceable 

Wells has stalled at 100 innings. I think he’s a late inning guy this year. He’d be my choice for closer over Cano.

The minor leaguers you mention aren’t a lock to come right up and pitch 32 starts at a 4 ERA. I’m not suggesting Elias isn’t capable of trading a guy. But, Gibson was his choice all be it cost controlled and he was more than a half a run higher. So his choice with the resources he had to apply to find a starter was worse.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

No ? Well in @Frobbyresponse he discusses Irvin’s performance after June 10. So obviously there is a double standard. 

I think your point is absolutely fair.  I’m not saying I think Irvin is as good as Kremer.  I’m saying it wouldn’t shock me if he had as good a 2024 as Kremer had in 2023, if given the opportunity.   

More important than what I think, it’s pretty clear that Hyde prefers Kremer.  And, our staff has less depth without Kremer than with him.  

 

[Jammer7]

Ok, so you’d rather have four years of Kremer over one year of Burnes and two years of Williams? You would rather give up more prospects than to give up Kremer. 

3 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

No ? Well in @Frobbyresponse he discusses Irvin’s performance after June 10. So obviously there is a double standard. 

Frobby’s post, to me, was pointing out that Irvin made strides and improved. Those stats were indicative of changes he had made. There was not any major changes with Kremer, though he did change his pitch usage, I think the sweeper was used much less as the season went on. 

Look at Kremer’s game logs and splits. He still had some big blow up starts through the year, particularly his last one. He had a 5.91 ERA in June, for instance. So it was not just April. He had a good, solid, and mostly healthy year. I’m not down on him, he just is what he is. He’s not a guy I feel great about in a big game. 
 

https://www.mlb.com/player/dean-kremer-665152?stats=splits-r-pitching-mlb&year=2023

[Jammer7]

3 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

Frobby ….. He threw to a 3.22 ERA after returning to the O’s on June 10.   I wouldn’t be shocked if he could put up Kremeresque numbers.  
 

Shocked doesn’t = easily replaceable 

Wells has stalled at 100 innings. I think he’s a late inning guy this year. He’d be my choice for closer over Cano.

The minor leaguers you mention aren’t a lock to come right up and pitch 32 starts at a 4 ERA. I’m not suggesting Elias isn’t capable of trading a guy. But, Gibson was his choice all be it cost controlled and he was more than a half a run higher. So his choice with the resources he had to apply to find a starter was worse.

No pitcher is a lock, not one. I like Kremer, and I’m willing to part with him in the right deal. You are saying we should not move him in this deal. Fine, we disagree. Let’s move on.

Third starters are easily found in free agency if you don’t like your in-house options. Gibson added a lot to this team beyond his numbers, and I think we more than got our money’s worth. There are other options out there, many of them. 

Wells in the back end of a bullpen, I’m fine with. Closer, with his health, no way. Occasionally closing games, perhaps. We need a closer. This window will not be open every year. 

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, Jammer7 said:

Ok, so you’d rather have four years of Kremer over one year of Burnes and two years of Williams? You would rather give up more prospects than to give up Kremer. 

Frobby’s post, to me, was pointing out that Irvin made strides and improved. Those stats were indicative of changes he had made. There was not any major changes with Kremer, though he did change his pitch usage, I think the sweeper was used much less as the season went on. 

Look at Kremer’s game logs and splits. He still had some big blow up starts through the year, particularly his last one. He had a 5.91 ERA in June, for instance. So it was not just April. He had a good, solid, and mostly healthy year. I’m not down on him, he just is what he is. He’s not a guy I feel great about in a big game. 
 

https://www.mlb.com/player/dean-kremer-665152?stats=splits-r-pitching-mlb&year=2023

And after April Kremer was more the pitcher he was in 2022. 

[Roll Tide]

54 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

No pitcher is a lock, not one. I like Kremer, and I’m willing to part with him in the right deal. You are saying we should not move him in this deal. Fine, we disagree. Let’s move on.

Third starters are easily found in free agency if you don’t like your in-house options. Gibson added a lot to this team beyond his numbers, and I think we more than got our money’s worth. There are other options out there, many of them. 

Wells in the back end of a bullpen, I’m fine with. Closer, with his health, no way. Occasionally closing games, perhaps. We need a closer. This window will not be open every year. 

So easy that we haven’t done so in free agency the last 2 years with the money Elias had. He was better than Lyles in 2022 and Gibson in 2023.

[Jammer7]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

So easy that we haven’t done so in free agency the last 2 years with the money Elias had. He was better than Lyles in 2022 and Gibson in 2023.

No doubt. That is a few things. One, the Orioles were not competitive. Two, they were not spending money, a very Angelos thing. Three, before the wall was moved back, most good pitchers did not want to come here and see their ERA’s balloon.

Elias referenced this in his recent comments. He spoke of FA’s interested in coming to Baltimore now. There are no guarantees, unless of course you do not try. I am a little optimistic, maybe I am wrong for that. We’ll see. Insanity can be defined as doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. Standing pat, with this team, would be insanity.