Cease vs everyone else

[banks703]

Just now, Roll Tide said:

Ks aren’t everything… WAR is fine and all. But, at some point the actual stats need to count. Gibson BB/9  2.6/9 vs Cease 4.0/9. Gibson 15 wins vs Cease 7 . 

The White Sox were a dumpster fire the entire year last season. I bet if you go back and watch every game that Cease threw, you'll see their defense routinely not make plays that major leaguers should make, errors, a general checked-outtedness and overall bad baseball. 

I have a close friend who is a die-hard WS fan and his sentiment is that Cease's year was not as good (obviously) as 22 but it was nowhere near as bad as his surface numbers suggest. 

There's a reason why Wins are a stat of the past. Gibson earned 15 wins with the O's because they were a 101-win team that was very good during the regular and bailed him out of a lot of games that his 4.73ERA (4.13 FIP good for 31st) pitched them to. Cease's ERA was 4.58 on a terrible defensive team with his FIP at 3.72, which was good for 18th best in the majors last year. 

Cease's HR/9 were better than Gibson's, who had the luxury of Walltimore. 

Put Cease on a good defensive team and I bet his numbers more closely resemble 2022 Dylan Cease. 

[banks703]

16 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Ks aren’t everything… WAR is fine and all. But, at some point the actual stats need to count. Gibson BB/9  2.6/9 vs Cease 4.0/9. Gibson 15 wins vs Cease 7 . 

So, discount strikeouts but emphasize walks? Got it. 

[wildbillhiccup]

15 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Ks aren’t everything… WAR is fine and all. But, at some point the actual stats need to count. Gibson BB/9  2.6/9 vs Cease 4.0/9. Gibson 15 wins vs Cease 7 . 

How in the world can someone who's posted over 20,000 times on a baseball message board still think wins are a meaningful pitching stat in the year of our Lord 2024?!?!

[Roll Tide]

1 minute ago, wildbillhiccup said:

How in the world can someone who's posted over 20,000 times on a baseball message board still think wins are a meaningful pitching stat in the year of our Lord 2024?!?!

Because I actually care about the results. The deep dive into stats are fine. But, sometimes you actually have to deliver. He walks a ton of guys and @banks703 I’m not discounting the Ks, I just said they aren’t everything. You posted favorable stuff to make your Cease argument but forgot too mention his BB/9 because it wasn’t favorable to your argument.

Gibson left his starts at minimum 15 times last year and the team was able to convert them to wins. Cease despite a better WAR and K’s didn’t. Some of its bad luck granted but others were certainly on him. I’m interested to know how many times he got pulled after putting hitters on base via walk. 

[wildbillhiccup]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

Because I actually care about the results. The deep dive into stats are fine. But, sometimes you actually have to deliver. He walks a ton of guys and @banks703 I’m not discounting the Ks, I just said they aren’t everything. You posted favorable stuff to make your Cease argument but forgot too mention his BB/9 because it wasn’t favorable to your argument.

Gibson left his starts at minimum 15 times last year and the team was able to convert them to wins. Cease despite a better WAR and K’s didn’t. Some of its bad luck granted but others were certainly on him. I’m interested to know how many times he got pulled after putting hitters on base via walk. 

I can't believe you're actually doubling down on this. It's like watching the Titanic slowly sink into the ocean. 

[Just Regular]

Shane Bieber I just discovered was rotation mates with Dillon Tate at 2015 UC Santa Barbara.     They were also together in 2014 when Baseball Cube lists Tate as the Closer.

It isn't Mike Elias and Craig Breslow on 2002 Yale, but it is pretty good.

[RZNJ]

22 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

So the actual results don’t matter? Ok He lost 8 games in his great season. Probably by walking too many and leaving with men on the bases.

Do you think the teams they were on made a difference?   Your WS buddies are going to have fun with this.

[ScGO's]

Lots of folks seem to think Cowser or Kjerstad need to be untouchable. Maybe they should; my best offer would be Cowser, Ortiz, McDermott.

However, what is the best deal we could put together with out Holliday,Mayo,Basallo, Povich, Cowser, and Kjerstad?

Ortiz, McDermott, Beavers, Norby, & DeLeon?

 

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I can't believe you're actually doubling down on this. It's like watching the Titanic slowly sink into the ocean. 

I think his point (which he isn’t articulating well) is that wins matter over the course of an extended period of time. You can’t look at Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens and say their win totals don’t matter they absolutely do. 
 

Where they don’t matter is from year to year for a guy like Gibson. 

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Do you think the teams they were on made a difference?   Your WS buddies are going to have fun with this.

These are just as much my buddy as a certain poster here. I think there was some effect. FYI, in 2022 Cease had a 2.2 ERA, the year he still managed to lose 8 games.  His FIP was 3.10….Wait, What? So the team made him better? 

[ThisIsBirdland]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

These are just as much my buddy as a certain poster here. I think there was some effect. FYI, in 2022 Cease had a 2.2 ERA, the year he still managed to lose 8 games.  His FIP was 3.10….Wait, What? So the team made him better? 

What relationship are you suggesting exists between losses and FIP?

[Roll Tide]

11 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I can't believe you're actually doubling down on this. It's like watching the Titanic slowly sink into the ocean. 

Valuable post …go t9 the head of the class 

[wildbillhiccup]

3 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I think his point (which he isn’t articulating well) is that wins matter over the course of an extended period of time. You can’t look at Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens and say their win totals don’t matter they absolutely do. 
 

Where they don’t matter is from year to year for a guy like Gibson. 

Greg Maddux...Roger Clemens...Kyle Gibson...just like three peas in a pod

 

[ThisIsBirdland]

White Sox board isn’t taking the latest Yankees leaks very well. They’re starting to resign themselves to the possibility that Cease stays through the deadline, and it definitely seems to be giving them some angst. I think Elias has been playing this well.

[Roll Tide]

Just now, ThisIsBirdland said:

What relationship are you suggesting exists between losses and FIP?

So the general claim is he was better last year than his ERA suggest due to a crappy defensive team. So in his great year his FIP indicates his ERA was better than he actually pitched. Surely it goes both ways right.