Creating an off-season "academy" for learning a new pitch or grip

[emmett16]

1 hour ago, Greg Pappas said:

Again, I understand the major changes that have taken place in coaching, analytics, and the use of video and other technologies, and they've been super effective.  We agree on that.  It's your dismissal of hands on teaching from the type of guys I mentioned that I disagree with.   No need to continue the back and forth.   I honestly do, however, appreciate your thoughts on this.  You make some good points.

Thanks.  It’s a good discussion.  There definitely are some exceptions.  The former players that understand all the new analytics (and there will be even more with the new generations coming up now).  The right former player can pay dividends.  

Edited February 12 by emmett16

[turtlebowl]

8 hours ago, Greg Pappas said:

Again, I understand the major changes that have taken place in coaching, analytics, and the use of video and other technologies, and they've been super effective.  We agree on that.  It's your dismissal of hands on teaching from the type of guys I mentioned that I disagree with.   No need to continue the back and forth.   I honestly do, however, appreciate your thoughts on this.  You make some good points.

I agree that a personal mentor type is an important part of the overall process.  If you have someone that has "been there, done that" it likely gives more credibility and I could see where new information may be better received.  One thing though, just because you have the technology doesn't mean a player has the physical ability to replicate. A Greg Olson curve or a Zach Britton sinker is just god given talent.    

[24fps]

Imagine this:

Your competitive window is wide open and you just signed pitcher X to a 7/175 contract. Do you really want an in-house facility dedicated to helping him screw around finding new and more effective ways to add unnatural stress to his elbow and shoulder?  And how often is learning a new pitch the answer to a pitcher’s struggles, especially the closer they get to the majors?

I have a hard time believing that the existing team programs aren’t already trying to provide everything a pitcher needs to maintain optimum performance.  Sure, there’s always the question of effectiveness but I don’t see a system-wide hole that demands immediate filling.

I think the offseason academies like Driveline can serve a useful purpose, but if I were GM I would want as much control as I could get over who attends and why.  

 

[Greg Pappas]

1 hour ago, turtlebowl said:

I agree that a personal mentor type is an important part of the overall process.  If you have someone that has "been there, done that" it likely gives more credibility and I could see where new information may be better received.  One thing though, just because you have the technology doesn't mean a player has the physical ability to replicate. A Greg Olson curve or a Zach Britton sinker is just god given talent.    

Yes, the odds of a pitcher being able to throw a specific new pitch nearly as well as the best guys, is remote.  The thought is trying to present something new to them, or at least taught in a different way.

[Greg Pappas]

1 hour ago, 24fps said:

Imagine this:

Your competitive window is wide open and you just signed pitcher X to a 7/175 contract. Do you really want an in-house facility dedicated to helping him screw around finding new and more effective ways to add unnatural stress to his elbow and shoulder?  And how often is learning a new pitch the answer to a pitcher’s struggles, especially the closer they get to the majors?

I have a hard time believing that the existing team programs aren’t already trying to provide everything a pitcher needs to maintain optimum performance.  Sure, there’s always the question of effectiveness but I don’t see a system-wide hole that demands immediate filling.

I think the offseason academies like Driveline can serve a useful purpose, but if I were GM I would want as much control as I could get over who attends and why.  

 

First, thank you for making me realize I had typed over the very important part of the OP that specifies this would only be intended for struggling guys, either at the big league level or even in the minors.  Maybe not even struggling per se, but perhaps some guys that just feel something new would raise their game to a new level.  So, I was confused at first when you mentioned a 7/175 pitcher.   I've updated the OP.  Again, thank you for getting me to fix it.

Edited February 13 by Greg Pappas

[sevastras]

I tried to reach out to Guthrie to change his grip slightly to improve but he is a douche and he didn’t want to hear it and ending up being unemployed do to his ineffective job performance. 

[Spy Fox]

22 minutes ago, sevastras said:

I tried to reach out to Guthrie to change his grip slightly to improve but he is a douche and he didn’t want to hear it and ending up being unemployed do to his ineffective job performance. 

Are you a pitching coach? 

I have no idea if he's a douche or not but Guthrie did stay employed and successful for a pretty long time in the league.

Looking at his reference page, getting -0.4 WAR for less than 1 IP in his attempted Nats stint is pretty funny though. 

[emmett16]

4 hours ago, turtlebowl said:

I agree that a personal mentor type is an important part of the overall process.  If you have someone that has "been there, done that" it likely gives more credibility and I could see where new information may be better received.  One thing though, just because you have the technology doesn't mean a player has the physical ability to replicate. A Greg Olson curve or a Zach Britton sinker is just god given talent.    

Talent is great, but today’s athletes are made.  The idea that someone was born with a little something extra and that alone will be their path to a professional career is a misnomer.

The technology provides the map and the tracking of progress.  “Deliberate practice” and self motivation do the rest.  The human body’s ability to adapt and change is still being pushed higher every day. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak:_Secrets_from_the_New_Science_of_Expertise

Edited February 13 by emmett16

[waroriole]

I’d rather teach the knuckleball system wide for guys who will never make MLB as is. 

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, waroriole said:

I’d rather teach the knuckleball system wide for guys who will never make MLB as is. 

How long has it been since a Knuckleball pitcher had a "successful" season?

Last I can think of is Dickey in 2017.  10-10, ERA+ of 102 FIP of 4.72.

I don't know if guys can really get it done with a K rate around 6 in today's game.

 

[wildbillhiccup]

I appreciate the general sentiment of this post / suggestion, but wouldn't it be better for the team to just offer to foot the bill for any player who wants to spend some time at Driveline Baseball in the offseason if they want to learn a new pitch and/or tweak some aspect of their game? That seems to be the gold standard right now. If Yale already exists there's no reason to try to start our own university. 

[Frobby]

Well, the Orioles already have their pitching lab, though it may not do some of the things discussed in this thread.  Here’s a good article about it.  

Edited February 13 by Frobby

[emmett16]

29 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Well, the Orioles already have their pitching lab, though it may not do some of the things discussed in this thread.  Here’s a good article about it.  

Thanks, I hadn't seen that yet.  I also hadn't heard about the Qualisys cameras before.  Those things are crazy.  They are like the Edgertronic cameras on steroids.  I read a funny anecdote on the Astros and their cameras.  When they were well ahead of the curve and using the Edgertronic cameras to scout and to analyze their players, they put tape over the branding of the camera so other teams didn't catch on and find out what they were doing.  The company got pissed, made them take the tape off the branding, and then other teams started to copycat what they were doing.  Before the Astros started using them, only two people where employing them for baseball purposes; Kyle Boddy (driveline owner) and Trevor Bauer(came across the technology on his own in his quest to be the best pitcher ever).  

[emmett16]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I appreciate the general sentiment of this post / suggestion, but wouldn't it be better for the team to just offer to foot the bill for any player who wants to spend some time at Driveline Baseball in the offseason if they want to learn a new pitch and/or tweak some aspect of their game? That seems to be the gold standard right now. If Yale already exists there's no reason to try to start our own university. 

I think the whole idea of the lab is try and do better than what Driveline is doing all while keeping your secrets in house.  If you are simply sending your guys to Driveline you don't own the data and you also aren't creating a competitive advantage, because anyone can go there.  The other piece is to save some money by doing it in house and also aligning your entire system, so they are hearing and practicing the same things from the top to the bottom.  It is curious that some of their players do go to Driveline (Tate for example).  I'd love to hear an interview with him and see what he has to say about both labs, why he chose to go outside the org, and which labs he preferred (at least as much as he can say w/o breaking an NDA).  

[wildbillhiccup]

5 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

I think the whole idea of the lab is try and do better than what Driveline is doing all while keeping your secrets in house.  If you are simply sending your guys to Driveline you don't own the data and you also aren't creating a competitive advantage, because anyone can go there.  The other piece is to save some money by doing it in house and also aligning your entire system, so they are hearing and practicing the same things from the top to the bottom.  It is curious that some of their players do go to Driveline (Tate for example).  I'd love to hear an interview with him and see what he has to say about both labs, why he chose to go outside the org, and which labs he preferred (at least as much as he can say w/o breaking an NDA).  

Other organizations have hired employees from Driveline. That would be another possible direction to go.