After Two Weeks of Pie...

[zff4]

The bar is pretty high these days.

Markakis raised our standards. Jones put the bar impossibly high but we like it there.

If it was Marty Cordova, Matos and Gibbons out there, we'd probably be a mite easier on the lad.

[TonySoprano]

What would our record be if Reimold was the starter and not Pie?

Can I play, too?

What would our record be if we had Olson instead of Eaton?

[Burg]

Fine, ignore it. You still haven't made an argument for Pie.

That argument has been made ad nauseum. It's a simple equation.

Pie's minor league track record + the Orioles need for young positional talent + the Orioles organizational situation + Pie's lack of options + Reimold's and Montanez's available options = Pie in LF for the majority of 2009.

Whether or not you choose to be swayed by the above is, of course, up to you. But it's a non-starter to state that no argument has been made for Pie.

[DrungoHazewood]

Try anyway. Put aside the options, because I think that's where some of the problem with Pie came about. The options issue forced his way onto the roster, IMO. I have a silly hang-up with a thing called "merit." For example, by merit, Eaton did nothing to obtain his roster spot.

If everything in baseball was done strictly on merit you'd see lots of prospects called up in their teenage years. Players would occasionally get released three months into a 5/120 contract. You'd see draft picks paid according to their real open market value. Derek Jeter would be a left fielder. Daniel Cabrera might still be in AA. You'd see all kinds of crazy stuff.

But in real life things like the CBA tend to muddy up idealized visions of baseball's meritocracy.

[TonySoprano]

That argument has been made ad nauseum. It's a simple equation.

Pie's minor league track record + the Orioles need for young positional talent + the Orioles organizational situation + Pie's lack of options + Reimold's and Montanez's available options = Pie in LF for the majority of 2009.

Whether or not you choose to be swayed by the above is, of course, up to you. But it's a non-starter to state that no argument has been made for Pie.

It's not a non-starter. Take the options out of the argument and tell me why he's a better choice than the other two? Montanez did fine in his appearance last year, didn't he?

[DrungoHazewood]

That argument has been made ad nauseum. It's a simple equation.

Pie's minor league track record + the Orioles need for young positional talent + the Orioles organizational situation + Pie's lack of options + Reimold's and Montanez's available options = Pie in LF for the majority of 2009.

Whether or not you choose to be swayed by the above is, of course, up to you. But it's a non-starter to state that no argument has been made for Pie.

That's about as clear a statement of the situation as you can make. Yes, if Pie had options he'd be in AAA. Iowa, to be exact. He is a Baltimore Oriole because he was out of options and the Cubs didn't want to give a 25-man slot to a project. The O's have the luxury of being able to.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's not a non-starter. Take the options out of the argument and tell me why he's a better choice than the other two? Montanez did fine in his appearance last year, didn't he?

So... in what universe does Pie still have options?

[Mackus]

It's not a non-starter. Take the options out of the argument and tell me why he's a better choice than the other two? Montanez did fine in his appearance last year, didn't he?

Pie has much higher upside than Montanez. He's got a better minor league track record than either Montanez or Reimold.

If you can take the options out of the equation, then you should also take Pie's disappointing performance in the majors out of the equation. That's really the only knock on Pie in relation to the other guys. Pie didn' get things done at the MLB level. Montanez did ok, and Reimold hasn't gotten there. But if you look only at minor league performance, Pie comes out way ahead of those guys, IMO.

I give Pie about two solid months. He's gotta be showing improvement over that time and having a decent amount of success. Low 700s OPS at the minimum from him and improving defense. If he's at that, he keeps playing. If not, and Reimold is doing well, he comes up. If Reimold isn't doing well, Scott goes back to LF and Salazar is our DH.

I don't give Montanez an extended look at LF similar to what I'd do for Pie or Reimold. I would bring him up immediately as the 4th OF though in place of Freel.

[Burg]

It's not a non-starter. Take the options out of the argument and tell me why he's a better choice than the other two? Montanez did fine in his appearance last year, didn't he?

And Montanez is how old? And Pie is how old?

Pie is younger than Montanez. Pie has a much better chance of having a future with the Orioles than Montanez does.

You can't just ignore relevant information and make a coherent argument.

[Nigel Tufnel]

It's not a non-starter. Take the options out of the argument and tell me why he's a better choice than the other two? Montanez did fine in his appearance last year, didn't he?

Because Pie can play CF, and has, I don't know, a 25% chance of becoming a star?

I do think that Montanez should be on the roster ahead of Freel, though, if can ignore that $4 million.

All of this kind of reminds me of that old saying - if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.

[Frobby]

Bump from March 22:

Reading between the lines, Pie hasn't learned all the ins and outs of LF yet. The people who say his defense will offset any offensive struggles seem to think he'll be a great LF right away, but I'm not so sure it will come that quickly. So if he makes a few mistakes in the field, and also hits poorly at first, we're going to be hearing almost immediately how the O's made a mistake, etc.

I say we have to give this a few months at least. When the season's half over, it will be time to begin evaluating how this is going. No, I don't think he just gets an uninterrupted year no matter how he's doing. 3 months is a good time to evaluate him IMO. Both Markakis and Jones were making noticeable progress by then, and Pie should be, too, even if he's not all the way there yet.

My opinion hasn't changed. I am not sure if Pie can turn himself into a plus LF or not. But I am very sure that 8 starts in LF over a two-week period isn't enough time to judge him.

My timetable for seeing significant improvement has not changed. He gets three months, then we see where he is both offensively and defensively.

[TonySoprano]

If everything in baseball was done strictly on merit you'd see lots of prospects called up in their teenage years. Players would occasionally get released three months into a 5/120 contract. You'd see draft picks paid according to their real open market value. Derek Jeter would be a left fielder. Daniel Cabrera might still be in AA. You'd see all kinds of crazy stuff.

But in real life things like the CBA tend to muddy up idealized visions of baseball's meritocracy.

And Montanez is how old? And Pie is how old?

Pie is younger than Montanez. Pie has a much better chance of having a future with the Orioles than Montanez does.

You can't just ignore relevant information and make a coherent argument.

I submit that when a team is in rebuild mode i.e. they are willing to take their lumps, force-fitting a guy onto the roster is contrary to the process. In the case of Montanez the contrary argument is being made that it's taken a long time for him to blossom. So what? Should we just let him whither on the vine so to speak, make him a career minor-leaguer ala Crash Davis in Bull Durham, or should we reward him for putting it together?

[rolliefingers]

Tony, I think all that manicotti has obstructed the flow of blood to your brain.

j/k, but I'm surprised to hear someone as smart as you making such a deliberately obtuse argument.

[Rex Thunder]

Reading between the lines, Pie hasn't learned all the ins and outs of LF yet. The people who say his defense will offset any offensive struggles seem to think he'll be a great LF right away, but I'm not so sure it will come that quickly. So if he makes a few mistakes in the field, and also hits poorly at first, we're going to be hearing almost immediately how the O's made a mistake, etc.

I say we have to give this a few months at least. When the season's half over, it will be time to begin evaluating how this is going. No, I don't think he just gets an uninterrupted year no matter how he's doing. 3 months is a good time to evaluate him IMO. Both Markakis and Jones were making noticeable progress by then, and Pie should be, too, even if he's not all the way there yet.

I'm not giving up on Pie yet either. I think this guy just needs to find his confidence. Being given up on after barely being given a chance- and then splitting time so far this season- has to be tough on him.

My expectations are tempered and realistic now- but still hopeful- and I'm willing to give him at least 200 at bats before I really decide he's had a fair chance to make an impression worthy of further looks as the answer in left.

The simple fact that he has had issues fielding the ball tells me that he is obviously pressing- and not playing with a ton of confidence. I say this because surely he didn't just lose his defensive ability overnight. I think you'll see his defense start to majorly improve- and with that his offense.

I couldn't agree more. This is what I said in another post.

[TonySoprano]

Because Pie can play CF, and has, I don't know, a 25% chance of becoming a star?

I do think that Montanez should be on the roster ahead of Freel, though, if can ignore that $4 million.

All of this kind of reminds me of that old saying - if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.

My bet is Freel will be off the roster soon enough. The squeaky wheel doesn't get the grease, but instead is shown the door.

Because Pie is out of options, the Orioles had their back up to the wall. I'll say again, don't expect everyone to like it, nor should he immune to criticism. Hopefully he'll turn into Jones 2008.

Tony, I think all that manicotti has obstructed the flow of blood to your brain.

j/k, but I'm surprised to hear someone as smart as you making such a deliberately obtuse argument.

Lasagna.