Seriously...what is up with Wieters?

[AgentOrange]

Two points:

1) I am thinking that Wieters proper rested in a 850-900 hitter.

2) The 100 games is only next year so he get his feet on the ground as a offensive player. After next year it is increased some using his offensive performance as a gauge as to how many games.

How does that work? If he is hitting the ball well it means he is properly rested so we keep running him out there? Wouldn't that wear him out more causing him to not hit as well later in the season?

What about if he isn't hitting well? We assume it is because he hasn't had enough rest and sit him more?

[Sports Guy]

I would guess that in the NL, the good-hitting catchers start at catcher a little more often, since putting them at DH is not an option.

I don't know that any evidence really supports that though.

[wildcard]

You're exaggerating a bit.

In 2008, Mauer started 135 games at C, 83% of the games.

In 2009, Mauer started 105 games at C but missed 22 on the DL. So, he started 75% of the games where he was available.

This year Mauer has started 83 of 119 games. However, there was a 7-game stretch where he sat out entirely even though the Twins did not put him on the DL. So, he's started about 74% of the games were he was available.

So, Mauer starts 74-83% of the time when he's healthy, and DH's another chunk of the time.

So what your point? Mauer was a established major league hitter in 2008 and 2009. In 2005 he started 110 games or 68% of his games. That helped him establish himself as a hitter in the Majors.

Wieters need to do the same. I am saying 100 games because he has had trouble establishing himself as a hitter and the O's might need to back off of him a bit. Doesn't mean he can't DH next year in 40 games or so.

[wildcard]

His MVP year, the only year he deserved to be MVP, he caught 139 games. The two things aren't coincidental - they're directly related. If, in 2009, he'd caught 100 games, DH'd in 15 more, and pinch hit in 15 more, he definitely wouldn't have been the most valuable player.

Yes, and Weiters can build up to that. He need to establish himself as a hitter in the AL first.

[wildcard]

Earlier this season, Mauer missed 7 games and had a pinch hitting appearance in an 8th game..a games against the O's. Didn't get the DL but missed all that time. That is pretty significant when you are talking about what you are trying to talk about. He missed back to back games earlier this month which means he probably had an issue..Other than that, he has missed games very sparingly.

In 2009, he missed the entire month of April. He then missed only 3 more games the rest of the season.

In 2007, he only apepared in 4 games in April and then missed the next month of the season.

2005 was his first full year, so, as is the case with all young players, he is going to sit a little less in his first full year than most.

So, you are talking about 6 seasons, including this one...In those 6 seasons, 2 of them he missed an entire month and 1 of them was his first full season.

And this year, he missed 7 games and the season isn't over yet. 7 games is 4% of a full season and we obviously still have a lot more games to go. So, he has missed much more than 4% of their season thus far.

2006 and 2008 were his only full seasons where you didn't see him get hurt and miss a good amount of time. In those 2 seasons, he averaged about 129 games catching and you can tell that they were still bringing him along slower in 2006, in his second year, as he DH'ed 17 times that year and only 5 in 2008.

So, I reiterate, Mauer is an awful example. You are talking about a small sampling of seasons and in a 1/3 of those seasons, he missed a month, so that brings you down to 4 seasons, including this one. In those 4 season, 1 of them was his first full year, as a 22 y/o. So, your sampling is getting smaller and smaller.

You are wrong here. If this is how Wieters has to be handled, then we should be looking to deal him and bring in a catcher who isn't a big dingleberry.

That is a lot of words to say he was on the DL for 58 days in 5.7 years. Which is not much. Everything else you said is a bunch of hand waving. It means nothing. All catcher miss days with injuries. Mauer is no different and neither is Weiters.

Mauer is an excellent example of how to treat an offensive catcher.

[wildcard]

How does that work? If he is hitting the ball well it means he is properly rested so we keep running him out there? Wouldn't that wear him out more causing him to not hit as well later in the season?

What about if he isn't hitting well? We assume it is because he hasn't had enough rest and sit him more?

Even when Luke is crunching the ball they give him time off and he is a DH. That what managing a player is all about.

[Sports Guy]

That is a lot of words to say he was on the DL for 58 days in 5.7 years. Which is not much. Everything else you said is a bunch of hand waving. It means nothing. All catcher miss days with injuries. Mauer is no different and neither is Weiters.

Mauer is an excellent example of how to treat an offensive catcher.

LOL...it means nothing? It means that your whole argument of Mauer's playing time is piss poor...Its a terrible argument. You have been shown to be as wrong in this thread as OldFan normally is.

Your whole point is that Mauer has played 111 games as a catcher, on average, thuis far in his career...But you neglect to mention that one year was his first full year and 2 of those seasons he missed a month. if you don't see the issue with your argument when you look at those facts, I don't know what to tell you.

And what about McCann?

And btw, Mauer got his "feet wet" in less games in his first full season but he was also a few years younger than Wieters...Wieters also saw a lot more action in his initial ML stint than Mauer did...Wieters shouldn't have to handled with kids glvoes..You are just wrong...and if you are right, that means Wieters isn't the player we thought he was...Either way, your point ends up making the Orioles SOL.

[AgentOrange]

Even when Luke is crunching the ball they give him time off and he is a DH. That what managing a player is all about.

That doesn't answer the question.

You said he doesn't hit well because he is tired. Then you said that his playing time would be determined by how he is hitting.

So if he is hitting well, he must be well rested right? At that point, would you play him more? How would you know he was getting too tired, if he is scuffling at the plate?

Say he goes into a month long + slump, do we sit him a ton to make sure he gets his legs back?

I think it is more complicated than that.

[Mackus]

I think it is more complicated than that.

It is 100% more complicated than that.

It simply makes no sense to say the only reason Wieters is struggling is because he's playing too much. There just is no basis for the thought that if you only played him in half the games he'd be hitting at a 900 OPS clip.

What OPS do you think Wieters would have right now if he had only caught 65 games so far this year instead of 88? Does anyone honestly think that change alone would increase Wieters OPS from the .687 embarrassment its been to something up above .800?

[wildcard]

That doesn't answer the question.

You said he doesn't hit well because he is tired. Then you said that his playing time would be determined by how he is hitting.

So if he is hitting well, he must be well rested right? At that point, would you play him more? How would you know he was getting too tired, if he is scuffling at the plate?

Say he goes into a month long + slump, do we sit him a ton to make sure he gets his legs back?

I think it is more complicated than that.

I am saying that I would like to see him start 100 games as a catcher next year and DH 40 times if he is hitting well enough to warrant DHing. That allows him to keep his legs fresh and see how good he is as a hitter.

Once he is established as a major league hitter then his days catching can be increased based on how he is hitting. Buck can manage that very nicely I would think.

[wildcard]

It is 100% more complicated than that.

It simply makes no sense to say the only reason Wieters is struggling is because he's playing too much. There just is no basis for the thought that if you only played him in half the games he'd be hitting at a 900 OPS clip.

What OPS do you think Wieters would have right now if he had only caught 65 games so far this year instead of 88? Does anyone honestly think that change alone would increase Wieters OPS from the .687 embarrassment its been to something up above .800?

I think the real question is how much should Wieters catch to optimize his hitting. I am saying he is catching too much to optimize his hitting now. But I am guessing 100 games. It could be more or less.

I am just saying that in order give him the best chance to establish himself as a hitter there has to be a priority placed on making sure he is not woren down by catching.

[Sports Guy]

I am saying that I would like to see him start 100 games as a catcher next year and DH 40 times if he is hitting well enough to warrant DHing. That allows him to keep his legs fresh and see how good he is as a hitter.

Once he is established as a major league hitter then his days catching can be increased based on how he is hitting. Buck can manage that very nicely I would think.

And we are all saying that this is a horrible plan.

What catcher has ever done this? That will be Wieters 2 full season and in his first stint, he played most of the season. There is no way he should need to be babied next year.

You keep bringing up Mauer..In Mauer's second full season, he had 17 games at DH and caught 120 games...and he wasn't as used to the number of games that Wieters already is.

[Mackus]

I think the real question is how much should Wieters catch to optimize his hitting. I am saying he is catching too much to optimize his hitting now. But I am guessing 100 games. It could be more or less.

I am just saying that in order give him the best chance to establish himself as a hitter there has to be a priority placed on making sure he is not woren down by catching.

Making sure he is not being worn down and only starting him behind the plate 60% of the time are very different degrees. Nobody is against avoiding running him into the ground, but there is a lot of happy medium between overusing him and only starting him 100 times.

120 games behind the plate is definitely not too grueling of a pace, and certainly not such grueling of a pace that it would even remotely explain a guy hitting 100-150+ OPS points below where he might be expected to. Wieters has struggled because right now, he's simply a bad hitter. He's got all the ability in the world to improve and be the guy we want him to be, but he isn't right now. He sucks. Its incredibly frustrating to watch such a talented guy struggle so much, especially after performing far better last year, but that's what we're dealing with.

[Mackus]

Wieters started at catcher in 84 of the Orioles final 114 games last year, from the end of May through the end of the season. That'd be a pace for 120 starts over a full season.

He wasn't worn down last season, and he hit his best as the season got deeper.

[Sports Guy]

Making sure he is not being worn down and only starting him behind the plate 60% of the time are very different degrees. Nobody is against avoiding running him into the ground, but there is a lot of happy medium between overusing him and only starting him 100 times.

120 games behind the plate is definitely not too grueling of a pace, and certainly not such grueling of a pace that it would even remotely explain a guy hitting 100-150+ OPS points below where he might be expected to. Wieters has struggled because right now, he's simply a bad hitter. He's got all the ability in the world to improve and be the guy we want him to be, but he isn't right now. He sucks. Its incredibly frustrating to watch such a talented guy struggle so much, especially after performing far better last year, but that's what we're dealing with.

Right....He has sucked from the beginning of the season..Was he tired already in April and May?

If so, he is not only a disappointment as a hitter but as a guy that you expect to be conditioned properly.

If he was hitting great all year and was starting to wear down now, maybe that would be a valid excuse...But that wasn't the case and has never been the case.