It's time for Andy to get "MacPhailed"

[eddie83]

There was more too it than that. There are many Spanish speaking players and players from Central America/Latin America on the team. Didn't his agent talk about this when he signed?

If you finish in the cellar it sucks in any language. Not trying to be a smart ass just making a point.

[JTrea81]

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/2011/06/orioles_news_notes_and_opinion_5.html#comment-9448934

Zrebiec says John Hart is indeed the name he's hearing the most for a potential replacement.

Bring him in now.

[Sports Guy]

This is ridiculous. You are asking a FA to sign in a division where the Sox and Yankees play and win over 90 games a year, to act like that doesn't impact how a player thinks is clueless.

I think it could impact a player like Braden Looper...A young-ish guy who may get another contract and doesn't want to get beat up.

Generally speaking, players go somewhere from 2 reasons...Money and a chance to win.

You can't win with an organization as poor as the Orioles, no matter what division you are in.

The division is an excuse.

[Sports Guy]

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/2011/06/orioles_news_notes_and_opinion_5.html#comment-9448934

Zrebiec says John Hart is indeed the name he's hearing the most for a potential replacement.

Bring him in now.

He isn't likely any kind of an upgrade but he is a new voice, so who knows?

[Tony-OH]

No. I don't think that financial capabilities of the Red Sox and Yankees make free agents turn away from Baltimore. I think Baltimore being a laughing stock of an organization for the better part of the last 13 years makes players not want to come to Baltimore. Had Baltimore floated between 78-85 wins over the past decade, I don't think they would have anywhere near the same trouble signing someone.

It would also be helpful if Baltimore were willing to pay what other teams are willing to pay. I say that while noting I do not feel they've missed out on anyone they needed to sign.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. If you think competing in the AL East doesn't dissuade some free agents then don't know what to say. I agree that the Orioles have stunk over the last 13 years for a lot of reasons, but acting like being in the AL East isn't part of the reason just doesn't make sense to me. Why would you want to join a team in a Divisions where two teams have dominated over the last ten years and have payrolls that suggest they will continue to do so? The only guys that will come here now are the ones with no other choice (Lee and Guerrero), ones with little offer (Atkins, Gonzales), ones that can be given a role or playing time that no other team will offer (Gregg) or ones we will have to significantly over pay for.

Part of it has to do with the fact that we've stunk for 13 straight years and part has to do with the fact that if you are looking to compete (and almost every guy out there wants to win) coming to the Orioles is not a good place to go.

[Tony-OH]

I think it could impact a player like Braden Looper...A young-ish guy who may get another contract and doesn't want to get beat up.

Generally speaking, players go somewhere from 2 reasons...Money and a chance to win.

You can't win with an organization as poor as the Orioles, no matter what division you are in.

The division is an excuse.

Are you telling me if we played in the AL central right now, that we couldn't be a contender next year by signing Fielder and resigning Hardy? Like I've said, I agree with you that this organization has made a lot of mistakes and we still don't do enough on the international markets or creatively through trades, but I'd take the Orioles organization right now and put it into the AL Central and we would be a contender and serious thread with the addition of Fielder. We are 23-21 (.523) against the rest of baseball and 10-18 (.357) against the AL East. Despite all of our injuries and guys not performing early on with the bat, we'd probably be no more than 4 games out in the Central. That's a contender. This organization only looks hopeless because of the who we have climb over to get into the playoffs.

I guarantee you if you knew the Indians and the Tigers were ahead of us by a few games we'd be thinking we have real shot, and we would.

[SammyBirdland]

No. I don't think that financial capabilities of the Red Sox and Yankees make free agents turn away from Baltimore. I think Baltimore being a laughing stock of an organization for the better part of the last 13 years makes players not want to come to Baltimore. Had Baltimore floated between 78-85 wins over the past decade, I don't think they would have anywhere near the same trouble signing someone.

It would also be helpful if Baltimore were willing to pay what other teams are willing to pay. I say that while noting I do not feel they've missed out on anyone they needed to sign.

I think the Orioles have similar financial "capabilities" as the Red Sox and the Yankees. We just choose not to exercise those capabilities. If you build it, they will come. Our front office isn't interested in building a winner. They're only interested in getting an adequate return on their investment.

George Steinbrenner said "the purpose of owning a ball club is to win ball games.” Our front office does not subscribe to that logic. They think the purpose of owning a ball club is to sell some commercial time to LUNA and make a few bucks off the winning ball clubs that come to town.

[Stotle]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. If you think competing in the AL East doesn't dissuade some free agents then don't know what to say. I agree that the Orioles have stunk over the last 13 years for a lot of reasons, but acting like being in the AL East isn't part of the reason just doesn't make sense to me. Why would you want to join a team in a Divisions where two teams have dominated over the last ten years and have payrolls that suggest they will continue to do so? The only guys that will come here now are the ones with no other choice (Lee and Guerrero), ones with little offer (Atkins, Gonzales), ones that can be given a role or playing time that no other team will offer (Gregg) or ones we will have to significantly over pay for.

Part of it has to do with the fact that we've stunk for 13 straight years and part has to do with the fact that if you are looking to compete (and almost every guy out there wants to win) coming to the Orioles is not a good place to go.

Why would players, then, sign extensions with Toronto or Tampa if fear of Yanks/Red Sox were that impactful an issue? Why would Vernon Wells elect to stay in Toronto rather than going elsewhere as a free agent? How about Bautista?

I guarantee that if Tampa were willing/able to throw out contract offers that matched those of other organizations almost all of those "premium" free agents would have gladly signed there. Being in a division with New York and Boston isn't the larger issue. It's the quality of the offer and the quality of the organization.

[LookinUp]

The O's are 764-1016 over the last ten years. The O's are 112 games under during those years against the Yanks and Red Sox. The O's are 140 games under .500 against the rest of the majors. How many pennants over the last ten years would the O's have won even if they were in another division? You can't just say the Yanks and Red Sox are beating up on the O's. I would like to see a balanced schedule and see if the O's do any better.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/games/head2head.cgi?teams=BAL&from=2000&to=2010&submit=Submit

So you agree with me then, right?

[eddie83]

Why would players, then, sign extensions with Toronto or Tampa if fear of Yanks/Red Sox were that impactful an issue? Why would Vernon Wells elect to stay in Toronto rather than going elsewhere as a free agent? How about Bautista?

I guarantee that if Tampa were willing/able to throw out contract offers that matched those of other organizations almost all of those "premium" free agents would have gladly signed there. Being in a division with New York and Boston isn't the larger issue. It's the quality of the offer and the quality of the organization.

What about Markakis and Roberts, what is the difference.

[BaysoxFan39]

Who was the Manny Machado in our farm system 4 years ago? Not that it matters since Jordan makes the picks...

Your opinion is clearly twisted. We are a better team and we are progressing... And the W/L column shows that.

With that said, MacPhail sure appears to have made mistakes. Maybe another GM could be better, but the MacPhail Witch Hunt is irrational.

I have said it many times. The key to the Orioles success is in their farm system. The direction should have been replacing Jordan and Stockstill and rebuilding from within. Committ to scouting. committ to drafting and stocking the minors with the best players they could find. Trading veterans that are not helping you win for prospects to beef up your farm system. When your farm begins to develop talent you can then use the farm to trade for a top shelf veteran to get you to the next level. The last part of the scenerio is us the fans. We are clearly frustrated by it is clear we have more losing to do until O's management decides to make changes in the minor league system and focus on development. We should have been doing that all along. Unfortunately we continued to keep the same minor league management and scouting in place instead of hiring fresh minds at that level.

[eddie83]

I think it could impact a player like Braden Looper...A young-ish guy who may get another contract and doesn't want to get beat up.

Generally speaking, players go somewhere from 2 reasons...Money and a chance to win.

You can't win with an organization as poor as the Orioles, no matter what division you are in.

The division is an excuse.

The division isssue is huge and to ignore it is foolish. I am not so sure that any of the other playoff teams outside of Philly last year would of contended in our division. Texas is a nice team but how many wins would they get playing in this division? Minnesota is a good organization but the teams in recent years they put on the field would not have won in this division. The Wild Card has come out of this division every year since 2003 except for 2006.

In terms of adding free agents players want to feel they would have a chance to win, that is hard to do here. You better win 93-94 games just to get a wild card. Toronto has put teams on the field the last 12 years or so that in some divisons would have made the playoffs, they have never really contended here at all.

Why would any quality pitcher none of whom I would bet don't care about their ERA want to pitch in a hitters park facing the best lineups in the game if they don't have to.

[Sports Guy]

Are you telling me if we played in the AL central right now, that we couldn't be a contender next year by signing Fielder and resigning Hardy?

Maybe...I agree with you that things wouldn't look as bleak if we were in another division. I have consistently said that we are the furthest team away from contending in all of the majors and that for us to contend consistenly, a top 5 organization must be built. That is where the division issue comes into play. But right now, they aren't sniffing the playoffs anywhere.

We are 23-21 (.523) against the rest of baseball and 10-18 (.357) against the AL East.

8-11 vs TB and Toronto though Tony. Its not just Boston and NY.

I am sorry but I will continue to say that using the division as an excuse is nothing more than a crutch.

The Orioles have dug their own hole...They have created their own bad luck.

You know that this is a tough division and that things are unfair...So, knowing that, why don't you do what you should to contend with the big boys?

[eddie83]

Like I said since 2003 the Wild Card has come out of the AL East every year but 2006

2003 95 wins

2004 98 wins

2005 95 wins

2006 87 wins

2007 94 wins

2008 95 wins

2009 95 wins

2010 95 wins

Those aren't the records of the division champ in the AL East but the SECOND PLACE team. In a sport where only 4 teams make the playoffs and you are required at a minumum to be a second place team to have a chance to make the playoffs I don't know how that wouldn't effect a FA's mindset.

I am Maryland fan and it has bothered me when some people bring up Duke and Carolina and how they hurt Maryland in the ACC, it's garbage. It isn't like you have to finish in first in conference play to make the tourney, in the Big East how many programs consider themselves Final 4 material, UCONN didn't have a great regular season record and they won the title.

The Orioles put themselves in this hole with their own stupidity, no question but aquiring FA's is a much harder sell here then if we are in another division.

[Sports Guy]

Like I said since 2003 the Wild Card has come out of the AL East every year but 2006

2003 95 wins

2004 98 wins

2005 95 wins

2006 87 wins

2007 94 wins

2008 95 wins

2009 95 wins

2010 95 wins

Those aren't the records of the division champ in the AL East but the SECOND PLACE team. In a sport where only 4 teams make the playoffs and you are required at a minumum to be a second place team to have a chance to make the playoffs I don't know how that wouldn't effect a FA's mindset.

I am Maryland fan and it has bothered me when some people bring up Duke and Carolina and how they hurt Maryland in the ACC, it's garbage. It isn't like you have to finish in first in conference play to make the tourney, in the Big East how many programs consider themselves Final 4 material, UCONN didn't have a great regular season record and they won the title.

The Orioles put themselves in this hole with their own stupidity, no question but aquiring FA's is a much harder sell here then if we are in another division.

Building through free agency is moronic though. The FAs aren't why this team blows.