Unhappy Scouts??

[Sports Guy]

Just to confirm, you don't care that the O's could have three total pro scouts covering the minors, and two scouts covering the Majors?

I would care a lot more if I didn't feel further additions would be made, whether it be by next OD or next year this time.

If they have to be short on things for the time being for DD to make the changes he feels are needed, so be it.

Again, this may not work. I agree there are issues with it.

But a shakeup is needed. The people we had in those positions did awful work. The results speak for themselves.

[weams]

I assume that Matthew Klentak is enjoying his new Free Agents in LA.

He was doing the day to day, right?

Wow, another 7 pages after I left? You guys really picked up my slack in here, sorry, had to go finish some Christmas shopping.

One lingering thought I had while I was out and about. I wonder if any of these guys were extended during the "interim" period while we were looking for a GM. Remember a couple months ago when they signed the Stockstills and said they had most of the scouts and whatnot signed then? I wonder who signed them and what that person thinks of this situation.@Tony, thanks for that input from Dean. I was going to PM you tonight since I knew you knew him well and see if you had heard from him about things. I actually really do get the idea behind having specialized scouts that REALLY know an area well instead of just passing guy after guy. I think the gist is to make these "area" scouts more important, and instead of them being viewed as just area guys that report up a level, having them really be a trusted opinion in those areas. I think some org. kinda treat area scouts like gophers, and it'd be nice to see them have more input and an important role (and better pay).

I'm hoping that they will add a couple eyes to pro scouting before the season starts, and I know it's past the normal scouting hire season. But kind of counter to Nick's point that the amateur guys will really be behind a bit right now, it's the offseason and we really don't need any pro scouts for a couple months yet anyway, what are they going to scout? A 22-year old's golf game? If they add some former players or just new guys later to scout the pro stuff it wouldn't really need to happen until ST or so would it?

[allstar1579]

Both will be really starting up around the same time -- amateur and pro.

Ah, gotcha. I figured the amateurs would start getting their lists together and getting plans together a little earlier than the pros would get started. Either way we still have a little time to get some. I imagine we will fill a couple more in, and it's more about reassigning against their will than reducing. At least I'm hoping so.

[allstar1579]

I assume that Matthew Klentak is enjoying his new Free Agents in LA.

He was doing the day to day, right?

Yeah he might have been. I wasn't sure who was handling it, but I figured if it was someone still here that would be a pretty big slap in the face.

[Stotle]

Ah, gotcha. I figured the amateurs would start getting their lists together and getting plans together a little earlier than the pros would get started. Either way we still have a little time to get some. I imagine we will fill a couple more in, and it's more about reassigning against their will than reducing. At least I'm hoping so.

Lists are done. Some showcases in Jan/Feb, but most traveling really gets going in February, which is around when pitchers and catchers report.

[allstar1579]

Lists are done. Some showcases in Jan/Feb, but most traveling really gets going in February, which is around when pitchers and catchers report.

Ah I see. A friend of mine works for perfect game doing the showcases so he's been back and forth from FL and TX all winter, but he said right now it's just the young kids they are doing. Was curious when the travel season started. I know I never really bother to start watching baseball until like later March, but that's just cause you know what the weather is like here in MD, and I HATE cold weather baseball.

[weams]

Yeah he might have been. I wasn't sure who was handling it, but I figured if it was someone still here that would be a pretty big slap in the face.

Dan Duquette did not seem too upset that Matt left us.

I found this also.

http://www.csnbaltimore.com/12/16/11/Do-you-still-need-to-scout-major-leaguer/landing.html?blockID=613596&feedID=6876

Fascinating development with the Orioles today.

(And when was the last time you could say that?)

New baseball executive Dan Duquette has reassigned most of the pro scouts-- the guys who would go around to major-league parks to check out the competition or evaluate players for trades -- to the amateur ranks. Duquette said plenty of data is available on big-leaguers, making eyes on the ground much less important.

“As you get more video and statistical analysis on a player, the longer they’re in professional baseball, it’s not as vital to have them seen by eyes, professional eyes,” Duquette told reporters. “Players establish a record of their work. Some of the trends that the statistics track, they’re not trends that professional scouts would normally see in a short look.”

Alternatively, video and stats are in short supply when it comes to amateurs.

[allstar1579]

Dan Duquette did not seem to upset that Matt left us.

I found this also.

http://www.csnbaltimore.com/12/16/11/Do-you-still-need-to-scout-major-leaguer/landing.html?blockID=613596&feedID=6876

Yeah, that doesn't shock me too much. Like I said during the LaCava talks, I've heard Matt was great with the numbers and could make it up the ladder as a financial/operations guy, but didn't really have the people skills or the schmoozing ability you need from a ML GM, at least not right now.

I said earlier in this crazy long thread that I could see that I understand you don't need a ton of guys doing advance scouting, so I was totally cool with the moves on that count. What kinda bothers me is like what Stotle talked about earlier, that you don't get much more feedback in the minors than you do on amateurs, so you still need SOME sort of pro scouting group. I'm hoping there is just a semantics issue and they mean by pro scouting they want to get rid of is big-league stuff and they plan on keeping with MiLB scouting. I know guys like Brady Anderson are going to be doing some form of scouting for the team, so I wonder if it's going to be guys like that doing some recon on an as-needed basis, or if they are going to use guys like that to make some visits to see amateurs in there area or what.

[Stotle]

Ah I see. A friend of mine works for perfect game doing the showcases so he's been back and forth from FL and TX all winter, but he said right now it's just the young kids they are doing. Was curious when the travel season started. I know I never really bother to start watching baseball until like later March, but that's just cause you know what the weather is like here in MD, and I HATE cold weather baseball.

Yeah, PG is all underclass stuff right now. World Showcase is their first draft event of 2012 -- always in Ft. Myers the second weekend in January. Attendance is hit and miss, but local college coaches and some MLB scouts make the trip. Indoor showcases and workouts with various organizations through January and JuCos start up a few weeks before the D-I season on Feb 18.

[allstar1579]

Yeah, PG is all underclass stuff right now. World Showcase is their first draft event of 2012 -- always in Ft. Myers the second weekend in January. Attendance is hit and miss, but local college coaches and some MLB scouts make the trip. Indoor showcases and workouts with various organizations through January and JuCos start up a few weeks before the D-I season on Feb 18.

I'd love to pop down there and see the world showcase, have family I could visit in Ft. Myers. It'd be tough with the older one turning 3 that weekend though. C'est la vie.

[jtschrei]

A few thoughts now that I have read the entire thread:

1) Given that there is apparently a "normal" scout hiring period in the fall, the timing is unfortunate. But there's nothing that can be done about that. Duquette wasn't hired in time to get into the organization, study it, see what needed changing, and start doing it by that time. You could say why wait until next year -- but every change that could improve the organization needs to be done as soon as possible. Changes to the way we scout might not pay off for a year or two... so you want to defer them a year? So that by the time things start improving we are on our 17th, 18th, 19th straight losing season? The hell with that. We tried slow and cautious with McPhail. Yes, as LJ points out, this could affect how other potential hires view our organization as a potential place to work. Perhaps there's a downside there. But our organization is clearly dysfunctional. And it appears that DD feels there's something that can be done to make it more functional... only time will tell if he's right or not, but it's his show right now and if he wants to try something DIFFERENT (minimizing pro scouting), I say have at it and start it sooner rather than later. I have to think there would be more attraction by an employee to be part of a well-oiled winning organization than to be part of a dysfunctional losing mess. We've got a long way to go to make tha transition, andif DD thinks this needs to be done he needs to start as soon as possible. And he has.

2) Our pro scouts did not tell us that Garret Atkins' bat speed had slowed down to the point that he was no longer a major league hitter. It did not tell us that Mike Gonzalez was not 100% healthy when we acquired him. It did not tell us the seriousness of Troy Patten's injury. In terms of acquiring pro players for every success we have had such as Jones or Guthrie, we have had many, many more failures. (And was the Guthrie acquisition a result of scouting, or did a minor league manager in our organization named Dave Trembley make the recommendation?) As Tony points out, our advance scouts have not helped us hit new pitchers we have never seen before as time after time guys with ERAs over 5 make us look totally foolish. Furthermore, in following this team daily, reading hte paper and many blogs and tweets by people that cover the team, I don't even recall one anecdotal story about advance scouting making a positive difference for the team. I don't see how anyone can look at any visible, tangible end-product put out by our pro scouts (the body of pro players we have acquired, advance scouting helping us win additional games) and say, wow, those guys must be doing a great job. Can I say for sure they did a poor job? Of course not, I simply don't have enough access to look under the hood and see how things are really running, nor would I have the expertise to judge things if I could. But when an organization has 14 straight losing seasons, and is considered by most in the industry to be a bastion of dysfunction, I would say the burden of proof would be to show me what good any particular facet of our organization has accomplished. Judged en masse, I see nothing that indicates to me that our Pro Scouting department has done a good job.

3) I think the assumption that these guys were being demoted as a ploy just to get rid of them is a stretch. It appears that Duquette really believes that too many resources are being spent on Pro Scouting and that it is unnecessary. The fact that he eliminated the title of Director of Pro Scouting is certainly indicative of this. That being the case, the best thing you can do for these guys is to reassign them where there talents can most be of use in the organization. And it does seem to appear, based on reading this thread about Frohwirth and Albany, that attempts were made to put guys in regions they were as comfortable as possible in.

4) It does look like some legitimate questions have been brought up about whether it is wise to eliminate minor league pro scouting. Has there been a statement that this is definitely happening, or is that just being inferred from these moves?

5) A 300+ post thread about scouting on a Friday a week before Christmas -- I wonder if the Orioles have any idea whatsoever what a loyal (if dwindling) cadre of fans they have that would generate this deep a discussion about this topic?

6) Finally I'd like to thank Stotle, AllStar, and nochance for bringing their perspective to the thread and educating us about the scouting business from an insiders' perspective.

Incredible post. Thanks. I've just spent over an hour reading this thread. I think this encapsulates all my thoughts. Thanks also to Tony for the good argument and especially for the inside info. from Dean Albany. That particularly makes me feel good about this shake-up.

[Hank Scorpio]

Yeah, that doesn't shock me too much. Like I said during the LaCava talks, I've heard Matt was great with the numbers and could make it up the ladder as a financial/operations guy, but didn't really have the people skills or the schmoozing ability you need from a ML GM, at least not right now.

I said earlier in this crazy long thread that I could see that I understand you don't need a ton of guys doing advance scouting, so I was totally cool with the moves on that count. What kinda bothers me is like what Stotle talked about earlier, that you don't get much more feedback in the minors than you do on amateurs, so you still need SOME sort of pro scouting group. I'm hoping there is just a semantics issue and they mean by pro scouting they want to get rid of is big-league stuff and they plan on keeping with MiLB scouting. I know guys like Brady Anderson are going to be doing some form of scouting for the team, so I wonder if it's going to be guys like that doing some recon on an as-needed basis, or if they are going to use guys like that to make some visits to see amateurs in there area or what.

I would agree with this regarding Klentak.

When I was doing the Ravens thing, he helped out one weekend. He wasn't a bad guy at all but he was definitely a little socially awkward. Plus he couldn't catch a punt to save his life.

[allstar1579]

I would agree with this regarding Klentak.

When I was doing the Ravens thing, he helped out one weekend. He wasn't a bad guy at all but he was definitely a little socially awkward. Plus he couldn't catch a punt to save his life.

Haha, thanks for that mental image. I think all FO interviews from now on should have a punt fielding portion, that would be awesome.

[bobmc]

Haha, thanks for that mental image. I think all FO interviews from now on should have a punt fielding portion, that would be awesome.

Oh-kayy - but why leave out the pass and kick???? :scratchchinhmm:

[allstar1579]

Oh-kayy - but why leave out the pass and kick???? :scratchchinhmm:

Well for some of these guys I'd rather them have to dress up as tackling dummies. I wouldn't want to risk that they might look good doing something. Have you ever seen people try to field punts? It's just funny to watch. Maybe we make PA ask them interview questions WHILE the punt is in the air, and WHILE #52 is barreling down the field towards them. Talk about a pressure filled interview.