Mussina elected to Orioles Hall of Fame! (Also Dauer and Youse) w/Mussina reaction

[Frobby]

As to the results, all I can say is I'm surprised at the lopsidedness.

Me too. Let's just say that the 13% are usually very vocal in their opinions about Mussina.

[Lucky Jim]

I've been watching Singleton on YES for a decade (when I'm not at the game itself in either Yankee Stadium or OPACY), and I have the opposite impression. Even on the rare occasions when the Orioles are playing well and beating the Yankees, Singleton often shows a disdain and a hatred for the team. If one didn't know, they might think that he played for the Yankees (ala Phil Rizzuto), and not the Orioles. Singleton may be a very nice person and very gracious everywhere else, but when he is on YES, he is clearly not an Oriole sympathizer.

I've never heard either. He's critical, but clearly criticism is warranted. I'd imagine it's as much frustration as it is anything else.

[DrungoHazewood]

I seriously doubt that any player who was going to test the free agent waters would not consider the Yankees merely because they were a "rival" of his prior team. I don't think professional athletes really get into "rivalries" the way fans do. At least, they didn't by 2000 when Mussina was a free agent. Maybe in the 1970's it would have mattered a little.

While we all would love it if everyone on the Orioles had a deep attachment to the Orioles from childhood, the reality is that most of them don't. Almost all of them don't. They're Orioles mostly because they happened to be on the board when the O's draft spot came up, or because they were traded by some other team to the Orioles. They didn't choose the Orioles, and their connection to the team is happenstance. If I'd been any good at baseball and was drafted by the Rangers or the Royals I can't imagine having a deep connection to them, no matter how much Rangers or Royals fans wanted me to.

Most of the reason that the O's haven't had another "traitor" like Mussina was that free agency didn't happen until 1976, and the Orioles have mainly been terrible since the modern economics of RSNs and new stadiums has happened. If free agency had come about in 1950 or 1960 I guarantee some of the long-term Orioles like Boog and Frank and Brooks would have gone elsewhere. The Orioles had no qualms trading most of them as soon as their talent started to slip.

[Gofannon]

When Mussina left I was as bitter as I've ever been as an Orioles fan. I put a column I think Boswell wrote about the situation, calling him a traitor, on the fridge and kept it there a good, long time. I said I'd never, ever forgive him.

But you know what? The last 12 years of the Baltimore Orioles can make you reconsider almost anything. I still am not happy Mussina left. But I'm finding it hard to stir up any kind of anger towards anyone who didn't or doesn't want to play for the post-1998 Peter Angelos Orioles.

Mussina didn't leave a team that was begging him to stay. He didn't leave a team that was on the cusp of glory. He didn't cause the team's freefall.

He left a team that had just traded away BJ Surhoff, who had deep roots in the community and (IIRC) was a good friend of Mussina's. Traded him for almost nothing. Cal was on the verge of retirement, as was Brady. They were clearly in a rebuild, run by a senile old man in Syd Thrift. They'd gone from 98 wins in '97 to three straight losing and declining years. He was leaving a 74-88 team with an average age over 32 and no farm system to speak of. Angelos drug out extension talks forever, trying his level best to get as team-friendly a deal as possible and using Mussina's status as a homegrown star as leverage against him. Mussina was coming off a year where he was 6th in the Cy Young voting, 5.5 wins over replacement, but finished 11-15 because of the crappy team around him.In retrospect, why would anyone in their right mind resign with the 2001 Baltimore Orioles? Yes, I'd be happier if Mussina had signed with the Brewer or the Indians or something. But the Yanks offered the most money, and he'd have been nuts to resign with the Orioles.

I'm perfectly fine with him going into the O's HOF. You're not a traitor if you pull chocks when your country is disintegrating around you because of tyrannical mismanagement by a two-bit dictator.

This is important to remember. They didn't just trade Surhoff, they traded Bordick, Charles Johnson, Harold Baines, Will Clark and Mike Timlin. You're being asked to sign a lesser contract with a team that was just gutted after months of posturing and low-ball offers.

Just look at the line-up he had behind him in the first game after the trading deadline (and look at the game he pitched).

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL200008010.shtml

[Orioles West]

Where was "there" exactly?

Well, not "there" there.

I was a member of the media during the process, but in a different state. Although, the O's did grant me a visiting media pass once upon a time, best weekend ever, but that is a different movie. I did get to talk to the "insiders" covering the story in town and they told me a month before he decided to leave that Moose was getting the cold shoulder from the Warehouse.

-Don

[Tony-OH]

When Mussina left I was as bitter as I've ever been as an Orioles fan. I put a column I think Boswell wrote about the situation, calling him a traitor, on the fridge and kept it there a good, long time. I said I'd never, ever forgive him.

But you know what? The last 12 years of the Baltimore Orioles can make you reconsider almost anything. I still am not happy Mussina left. But I'm finding it hard to stir up any kind of anger towards anyone who didn't or doesn't want to play for the post-1998 Peter Angelos Orioles.

Mussina didn't leave a team that was begging him to stay. He didn't leave a team that was on the cusp of glory. He didn't cause the team's freefall.

He left a team that had just traded away BJ Surhoff, who had deep roots in the community and (IIRC) was a good friend of Mussina's. Traded him for almost nothing. Cal was on the verge of retirement, as was Brady. They were clearly in a rebuild, run by a senile old man in Syd Thrift. They'd gone from 98 wins in '97 to three straight losing and declining years. He was leaving a 74-88 team with an average age over 32 and no farm system to speak of. Angelos drug out extension talks forever, trying his level best to get as team-friendly a deal as possible and using Mussina's status as a homegrown star as leverage against him. Mussina was coming off a year where he was 6th in the Cy Young voting, 5.5 wins over replacement, but finished 11-15 because of the crappy team around him.

In retrospect, why would anyone in their right mind resign with the 2001 Baltimore Orioles? Yes, I'd be happier if Mussina had signed with the Brewer or the Indians or something. But the Yanks offered the most money, and he'd have been nuts to resign with the Orioles.

I'm perfectly fine with him going into the O's HOF. You're not a traitor if you pull chocks when your country is disintegrating around you because of tyrannical mismanagement by a two-bit dictator.

And that's a perfectly good take to have 12 years later and using hindsight. Honestly, if I knew the mess the Orioles were going to be in, I might of ran screaming as well. Here's the thing, we don't know how the Orioles' fortunes would have changed had Mu$$ina choose to stay. It's easy to look at the fire sale now and say the Orioles were hosed, but at the time, no one new Lesli Brea was actually 27-years old instead of 21, that Luis Rivera was on the cusp of needing career ending labrum surgery, and that none of the hard throwing White Sox pitchers were going to amount to a hill of beans. We did end up getting Melvin Mora and we resigned Mike Bordick that offseason. So really, let's not pretend like the firesale was so obvious to every by the 2000 off season when this all went down.

The Orioles were just three season from being in the American League championship series and at the time they had a competitive payroll with the Yankees. Were they being run by Angelos and Thrift at the time, yep, and it's hard to fault someone from wanting to get away from those two, but I don't think it's fair to use 12 years of futility to make us feel better about Mu$$ina leaving. Mu$$ina was going to be paid enough money to never have to work again and his family was going to be taken care of for life with the money that Angelos offered. That along with the fact of leaving a legacy as an organization best pitcher ever wasn't enough. It wasn't even enough to not sign with the chief rival at the time.

The easy way is to look over the last 12 years and say Mu$$ina was right in escaping the Titanic. However, I'm saying we hadn't even really seen the iceberg yet.

Too many of you are blinded by what we know about Angelos now and what we know he's done to destroy a once proud franchise. I'm saying that wasn't known then and I'm not about to say Mu$$ina had some sort of ESP either. Mu$$ina left for a slightly better offer after the Orioles offered him exactly what he asked for. Had he resigned and helped Cal try to right the ship, maybe things would have been different.

[Lucky Jim]

This is important to remember. They didn't just trade Surhoff, they traded Bordick, Charles Johnson, Harold Baines, Will Clark and Mike Timlin. You're being asked to sign a lesser contract with a team that was just gutted after months of posturing and low-ball offers.

Just look at the line-up he had behind him in the first game after the trading deadline (and look at the game he pitched).

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL200008010.shtml

Look at that Tuesday night attendance!

[Conway12]

I'll dislike him forever, Mussina leaving along with the other Angelos moves caused my father to not go to an Orioles game for over 10 years until I finally got him to go back to one a few years back.

[flashjordnk]

Look at that Tuesday night attendance!

80 degree day with a nice 10 MPH wind. Sounds like a perfect day at the park.

[Lucky Jim]

And that's a perfectly good take to have 12 years later and using hindsight. Honestly, if I knew the mess the Orioles were going to be in, I might of ran screaming as well. Here's the thing, we don't know how the Orioles' fortunes would have changed had Mu$$ina choose to stay. It's easy to look at the fire sale now and say the Orioles were hosed, but at the time, no one new Lesli Brea was actually 27-years old instead of 21, that Luis Rivera was on the cusp of needing career ending labrum surgery, and that none of the hard throwing White Sox pitchers were going to amount to a hill of beans. We did end up getting Melvin Mora and we resigned Mike Bordick that offseason. So really, let's not pretend like the firesale was so obvious to every by the 2000 off season when this all went down.

The Orioles were just three season from being in the American League championship series and at the time they had a competitive payroll with the Yankees. Were they being run by Angelos and Thrift at the time, yep, and it's hard to fault someone from wanting to get away from those two, but I don't think it's fair to use 12 years of futility to make us feel better about Mu$$ina leaving. Mu$$ina was going to be paid enough money to never have to work again and his family was going to be taken care of for life with the money that Angelos offered. That along with the fact of leaving a legacy as an organization best pitcher ever wasn't enough. It wasn't even enough to not sign with the chief rival at the time.

The easy way is to look over the last 12 years and say Mu$$ina was right in escaping the Titanic. However, I'm saying we hadn't even really seen the iceberg yet.

Too many of you are blinded by what we know about Angelos now and what we know he's done to destroy a once proud franchise. I'm saying that wasn't known then and I'm not about to say Mu$$ina had some sort of ESP either. Mu$$ina left for a slightly better offer after the Orioles offered him exactly what he asked for. Had he resigned and helped Cal try to right the ship, maybe things would have been different.

To be fair, though, the quotes (both from Mussina and Angelos) at the time do hint at exactly what Drungo is talking about:

Mussina said money was not the determinant, citing what looks to be the Orioles' protracted rebuilding period and the Yankees' zeal to improve a three-time world champion.

"I think I'm in a little different place as far as rebuilding," Mussina said, obliquely referring to his former team's three consecutive fourth-place seasons. "These guys have the momentum, and the Orioles are looking to get some players and regain some momentum."

Barely two years after the Orioles put together the American League's most expensive roster, Angelos said the Yankees' industry-high revenue stream put him in a no-win predicament.

"The only reason the Yankees can do it is because they have the potential to get $100 million in cable revenues while the Orioles settle for about $25 million," said Angelos. "Give me the $100 million that they've got, and Mike Mussina would still be in Baltimore."

So, Mussina is looking at the prospects of the rebuild against the Yankees' investment in a good product, and Angelos is admitting he doesn't have the money to compete against the Yanks. I doubt, of course, that anyone could foresee the coming disparity brought about by YES.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-12-01/news/0012010026_1_mussina-orioles-roger-clemens

None of this changes just how angry I was at the time, though.

Edit: I think these quotes can go a couple of ways. They can be taken to show that Mussina is a front-runner. Or, given what we know of Mussina's smarts, they can also be taken to show that Mussina saw the writing on the wall.

[Gurgi]

To me, this was the most infuriating part of the Mussina negotiations. How could Angelos not see what was coming, when the exact same thing had just happened with Palmeiro?

This was his mug and extort technique that works very good against Abestos and Cigarette companies. Drag it out. Burn up the lawyer fees. The longer it takes the better it works out for him.

He never figured out that this crap doesnt work in baseball.

Remember when he would go on European trips and refuse to put his signature or go ahead on important FA deals? They couldnt reach him and everything with the Orioles took twice as long as a normal team?

Still Mussina isnt crap in NY. He isnt loved like Jeter. He isnt even a winner like AROD. Mussina is a trivial guy.

When it could of been sooooo much different.

You think Ken Griffey Jr wishes he had just stayed in Seattle?

[Pedro Cerrano]

"The only reason the Yankees can do it is because they have the potential to get $100 million in cable revenues while the Orioles settle for about $25 million," said Angelos. "Give me the $100 million that they've got, and Mike Mussina would still be in Baltimore."

So now Angelos has his cable network -- has for a few years for not one, but two, major league teams. Where's the results?

SCREW PETER ANGELOS!!!!

[Frobby]

And that's a perfectly good take to have 12 years later and using hindsight. Honestly, if I knew the mess the Orioles were going to be in, I might of ran screaming as well. Here's the thing, we don't know how the Orioles' fortunes would have changed had Mu$$ina choose to stay. It's easy to look at the fire sale now and say the Orioles were hosed, but at the time, no one new Lesli Brea was actually 27-years old instead of 21, that Luis Rivera was on the cusp of needing career ending labrum surgery, and that none of the hard throwing White Sox pitchers were going to amount to a hill of beans. We did end up getting Melvin Mora and we resigned Mike Bordick that offseason. So really, let's not pretend like the firesale was so obvious to every by the 2000 off season when this all went down.

I am pretty sure that the Leslie Brea situation was publicized within a few days after the trade. The Rivera injury was not known, for sure. But I remember the overall reaction to the deals was that the Orioles had not gotten very much in return for its players. And I do remember Mussina, shortly thereafter and long before the offseason, questioning whether at his age he wanted to go through several years of rebuilding, which obviously was in the cards.

Anyway, I don't want to distract from my main point, which is that Mussina deserves to be in the Orioles Hall of Fame because of how he pitched for this team for 10 years, regardless of what anyone thinks of his reasons for leaving.

[ccbird]

To be fair, though, the quotes (both from Mussina and Angelos) at the time do hint at exactly what Drungo is talking about:

So, Mussina is looking at the prospects of the rebuild against the Yankees' investment in a good product, and Angelos is admitting he doesn't have the money to compete against the Yanks. I doubt, of course, that anyone could foresee the coming disparity brought about by YES.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-12-01/news/0012010026_1_mussina-orioles-roger-clemens

None of this changes just how angry I was at the time, though.

You're a 32 year old pitcher, you've just been on 2 disappointing teams in '99 and '00. During the '00 season you see the GM have a complete firesale. Even if you think there is hope for the future you know you are completely rebuilding for a minimum of 2-3 years. That takes Moose to 34-35. Age is completely a factor here too. Moose had to feel like the window was closing on his career. He didn't have 3 years to wait around for the O's to possibly be contenders again.

[Gurgi]

One reason I am still bitter at Mussina is that he doesnt come across as a good guy. He comes across as an arrogant tool. Probably just as smugly self confident as Angelos.

And neither of these guys won the big one in baseball.