Adam Jones - For Real or Overrated?

[Lucky Jim]

Well, it's clearly different. The gold glove winners don't match the manager poll quoted in the BA piece. I guess we can make make guesses as to how it's different, but I'm not sure that would get us anywhere.

I agree that subjective is generally not preferable to objective. I also think that the fielding metrics we have to measure outfield defense is potentially quite flawed. If not in the manner in which it compares defensive abilities among players, than certainly in how it assigns "win shares" to players.

I agree with your point in general re: defensive metrics, and argued it earlier in the thread.

And it's fine to undervalue UZR a little - it may be among the best metrics we have, but it's not w/o its issues.

I'd imagine a managerial poll might be good to gauge tools, but not the day-to-day implementation of those tools on the field. I'd rather have (i) experts devoted to the task of analysis by (a) viewing every play and (b) reviewing metrics; and (ii) large-scale crowd-sourcing of information.

Like I said, a manager's opinion is a valid input. I'm just not convinced it (yet) rises above long-standing flaws.

[Stotle]

I agree with your point in general re: defensive metrics, and argued it earlier in the thread.

I'd imagine a managerial poll might be good to gauge tools, but not the day-to-day implementation of those tools on the field. I'd rather have (i) experts devoted to the task of analysis by (a) viewing every play and (b) reviewing metrics; and (ii) large-scale crowd-sourcing of information.

Like I said, a manager's opinion is a valid input. I'm just not convinced it (yet) rises above long-standing flaws.

I don't disagree with any of this (though I would state that "Best Defensive Outfielder" is a pretty clear-cut tool that essentially encompasses everything that is generally being discussed in this thread.

I do think that strong positions on player value based on publicly-available defensive metrics are probably poorly-backed positions (not that you are claiming otherwise). I am skeptical that Jones would be worth the extension he's likely to want, but I think arguing that Bourgos is the more valuable player (and arguing that point strongly) is unconvincing if the main argument is WAR, backed by dWAR.