What would it take to get Billy Butler

[SteveO]

First- and please do try to comprehend this- don't be a condescending tool. Second, the reason that SD was prepared to accept that offer was because Headley had significantly less value at that point. The dude was hitting like .270 with 12ish HRs at the time. He hadn't gone on his second-half tear yet and no one had any reason to think he was going to put up MVP-type numbers by season's end.

Butler is the face of their franchise and one of the premier hitters in the game. He's 27, and he's making less than 10 mil in 2013 and 2014(with a below market value option for 2015). The fact that he's best-suited to be a DH will have very little impact on his value.

Agree and disagree. The fact that he only suited to play DH does limit his value in that it limits the number of teams that would get in on him. Eliminating the NL does have some effect on his value IMO. That said, he is a good enough hitter that there would be plenty of AL teams interested and certainly enough to drive up his value. I would love to get the guy, it would help if a few other teams like Seattle and Tampa do not get overly aggressive in pursuing him. Fingers crossed

[sevastras]

I am talking to KC fans tonight, who have been around Butler and know him on a personal level, and they say we can have him. Give them a 4/5 starter and a Strop and they will be thrilled. I feel validated, but take it for what you want. They say watching him at 1B daily was painful and cant believe that some of those balls ended up in his glove, he is strictly a DH. I know I am not the only one on here that thinks he is not a fit, and am sure that we dont need him. .300 with 30 HR is not the fantasy that some are looking for. How about a guy that does that from LF? I am not willing to give up anyone with any value for this guy. Kill me mid season next year when you feel that we could have used him instead of our young pitching, but I value our trade chips much more than a DH.

[SteveO]

I am talking to KC fans tonight, who have been around Butler and know him on a personal level, and they say we can have him. Give them a 4/5 starter and a Strop and they will be thrilled. I feel validated, but take it for what you want. They say watching him at 1B daily was painful and cant believe that some of those balls ended up in his glove, he is strictly a DH. I know I am not the only one on here that thinks he is not a fit, and am sure that we dont need him. .300 with 30 HR is not the fantasy that some are looking for. How about a guy that does that from LF? I am not willing to give up anyone with any value for this guy. Kill me mid season next year when you feel that we could have used him instead of our young pitching, but I value our trade chips much more than a DH.

Unfortunately the fans are not the GM in KC. Butler would be a welcome addition IMO. Yea he is limited to DH but on the other hand he is pretty damn good at it. Someone has to play DH, I want as much production as possible out of the position, Butler fits that bill at the right price. The dude is incredibly productive. I doubt the price stays reasonable if a few other teams with higher quality prospects get involved, but worth kicking the tires so to speak IMO.

[SteveO]

Just to clarify I meant quality prospects they are willing to trade

[DrinkinWithFermi]

I am talking to KC fans tonight, who have been around Butler and know him on a personal level, and they say we can have him. Give them a 4/5 starter and a Strop and they will be thrilled. I feel validated, but take it for what you want. They say watching him at 1B daily was painful and cant believe that some of those balls ended up in his glove, he is strictly a DH. I know I am not the only one on here that thinks he is not a fit, and am sure that we dont need him. .300 with 30 HR is not the fantasy that some are looking for. How about a guy that does that from LF? I am not willing to give up anyone with any value for this guy. Kill me mid season next year when you feel that we could have used him instead of our young pitching, but I value our trade chips much more than a DH.

The "KC fans" can say whatever they want; his numbers say that he's one of the 10-15 best hitters in baseball. His batting line over the last 4 years looks roughly like this: .306/.373/.483. And that's at a pitcher's park. The guy is just now heading into his prime years, and would almost certainly improve even further at OPACY. The lineup would be much better with him, and by a wide margin. Sure we would lose some flexibility when filling out the lineup card but only at the cost of adding a potential HOF hitter for what should be his most productive years.

I just don't see how we get him without giving up Tillman or Bundy, along with several solid prospects. I wouldn't hesitate to offer Miguel Gonzalez as the centerpiece of a deal but I don't think that many professional baseball people expect him to replicate his 2012 performance over a full season so I doubt they'd bite.

[Scrat1]

The "KC fans" can say whatever they want; his numbers say that he's one of the 10-15 best hitters in baseball. His batting line over the last 4 years looks roughly like this: .306/.373/.483. And that's at a pitcher's park. The guy is just now heading into his prime years, and would almost certainly improve even further at OPACY. The lineup would be much better with him, and by a wide margin. Sure we would lose some flexibility when filling out the lineup card but only at the cost of adding a potential HOF hitter for what should be his most productive years.

I just don't see how we get him without giving up Tillman or Bundy, along with several solid prospects. I wouldn't hesitate to offer Miguel Gonzalez as the centerpiece of a deal but I don't think that many professional baseball people expect him to replicate his 2012 performance over a full season so I doubt they'd bite.

I like Butler but this is all somewhat misleading. Yes, he's a very good hitter, but as other people have mentioned, he's a DH. Last year was his career best and he was only worth 3.2 fWAR. Until the end of his contract he's probably a 3-4 WAR player. Very solid, but not the sort of production that warrants trading away large chunks of young talent. I'd be comfortable offering one of Britton/Arrieta/Matusz and one of Avery/Hoes, but beyond that I don't think he's really worth it.

[Roll Tide]

Well, would you rather have Jeremy Hellickson or Arrieta/Matusz/Britton and Schoop? I think the Royals would take the proven young talent.

Well that's true from a certain point of view. They likely wouldn't get as big of a package if they take a player like Hellickson. So then you'd have to look the other players and years of control etc.

[Roll Tide]

First- and please do try to comprehend this- don't be a condescending tool. Second, the reason that SD was prepared to accept that offer was because Headley had significantly less value at that point. The dude was hitting like .270 with 12ish HRs at the time. He hadn't gone on his second-half tear yet and no one had any reason to think he was going to put up MVP-type numbers by season's end.

Butler is the face of their franchise and one of the premier hitters in the game. He's 27, and he's making less than 10 mil in 2013 and 2014(with a below market value option for 2015). The fact that he's best-suited to be a DH will have very little impact on his value.

Headley still had a good glove, and wasn't a DH. He's still would've hit .270 and 25 hrs. You can argue the merits of Butler's .300 average but the difference is really 3 hits per 100 abs. Im not arguing that he's it a valuable player. But using the word premier doesn't increas his value.

[Roll Tide]

The "KC fans" can say whatever they want; his numbers say that he's one of the 10-15 best hitters in baseball. His batting line over the last 4 years looks roughly like this: .306/.373/.483. And that's at a pitcher's park. The guy is just now heading into his prime years, and would almost certainly improve even further at OPACY. The lineup would be much better with him, and by a wide margin. Sure we would lose some flexibility when filling out the lineup card but only at the cost of adding a potential HOF hitter for what should be his most productive years.

I just don't see how we get him without giving up Tillman or Bundy, along with several solid prospects. I wouldn't hesitate to offer Miguel Gonzalez as the centerpiece of a deal but I don't think that many professional baseball people expect him to replicate his 2012 performance over a full season so I doubt they'd bite.

Sounds like you're a KC fan that's pretending to be an objective Orioles fan.

[DrinkinWithFermi]

Headley still had a good glove, and wasn't a DH. He's still would've hit .270 and 25 hrs. You can argue the merits of Butler's .300 average but the difference is really 3 hits per 100 abs. Im not arguing that he's it a valuable player. But using the word premier doesn't increas his value.

No one had any reason to think Headley was going to hit 25 HRs. His previous career high was 12, and he only hit 4 in almost 400 ABs in 2011.

And saying a premier hitter isn't a premier hitter doesn't make it fact. The guy is putting together a HOF career.

Sounds like you're a KC fan that's pretending to be an objective Orioles fan.

And you sound like someone without a counterpoint. Why don't you stick your tongue out at me while you're at it?

[Roll Tide]

What's the difference. Everything he said was pretty much spot on. As for WAR, I guess all DH's have a low number because you don't get any points for defense. Anyone know what the average DH WAR was for all teams in the AL last year? How much WAR did the O's have at the DH spot. I'm not advocating a trade because I don't think KC does it without Tillman and I hate to give him up in the deal. KC is not going to want question marks back as the main piece of the deal.

I don't think it's Bundy or bust on a deal. I agree that there are more accomplished pitchers than what the O's will send. Arguing what Tampa could offer is kinda out of Leftield. We dot know if Tampa is really interested and what they would offer fr his worth. Tampa is never IMO going to trade for $10 million players. They are more likely to be dumping that guy for a cheaper option. Usually low market teams deal guys at peak performance and salary that's escalating for packages of young players. So I really dont see the Rays trading fr him. Seattle is another case and more likely to trade off young players to get a player like Butler.

[Roll Tide]

No one had any reason to think Headley was going to hit 25 HRs. His previous career high was 12, and he only hit 4 in almost 400 ABs in 2011.

And saying a premier hitter isn't a premier hitter doesn't make it fact. The guy is putting together a HOF career.

And you sound like someone without a counterpoint. Why don't you stick your tongue out at me while you're at it?

Butler never hit more than 21 homers before this season, and no one could have ever guesses he'd hit 29 this season. His career average is .304 not .320. If he continues for the next 10 seasons to produce closer to the numbers he did this year then I agree that he with you he will have HOF numbers. If he goes back to averaging .304 with 16 homers and 80 ish RBI then he's very likely not a HOF player IMO. Headley plays in one of the worst parks in baseball for power hitters in San Diego.

And as far as the stupid tongue sticking comment....Are you a Royal fan or not? Thts all I was implying.

[CA-ORIOLE]

What's the difference. Everything he said was pretty much spot on. As for WAR, I guess all DH's have a low number because you don't get any points for defense. Anyone know what the average DH WAR was for all teams in the AL last year? How much WAR did the O's have at the DH spot. I'm not advocating a trade because I don't think KC does it without Tillman and I hate to give him up in the deal. KC is not going to want question marks back as the main piece of the deal.

The average DH wRC+ was about 113 and Butler had a wRC+ of 125 the past 4 years. That 125 wRC+ ranks him 3rd among qualified DH's according to fangraphs. Most DH's aren't dedicated DH's though. Butler also gives up about 6+ runs above average in baserunning which is also above average (worse) even for for a DH. Some WAR value would be lost there. Butler ranked 17th overall in wRC+among qualified hitters last year, around 30th over the past few years. I think the Headley comparison is kind of interesting in some aspects as it does look like Butler may be developing as hitter with power and could progress even more in a hitters park. Potentially he could be an Ortiz type DH for many years.

That said, if the price was Tillman as paart of the deal, I don't think I'd want to do it.

[OrioleMagic79]

A hole in the lineup is a hole in the lineup...and the DH is in the lineup, is it not?

Now, Davis isn't a hole necessarily, but would anyone deny that when comparing which guy is a better DH (because yes, we need to have one...) that Butler is better than Davis? I would certainly hope not...

I even like Davis, and to me, he could be our current best option in three places...DH, 1B (debatable if Reynolds were to come back), and LF (if McLouth doesn't repeat his success and ends up a liability with the bat in his hands)...

To me it is simple, who is the better DH, Butler or Davis? I think it's Butler. OK, so then move Davis to another position. Is Davis the best option at that position? If yes, keep him there, if not, try another position. Until the answer is "Davis is our best option at (insert position here)", then you have to consider getting someone to replace him. The nice thing about that would be that Davis would probably be pretty tempting at this point to some teams because he looks like he is trending upward.

Now if Butler were 31, I would take a different stance. But when did DH become a place where you have to settle for less just because you want someone who isn't a bad fielder to fill it? That is kinda silly...do you only sign a good second baseman if he can play third too? Maybe if he's not a stud at 2B, but if he's an all-star there, nobody cares if he can play another position...

If someone gets hurt and your DH needs to fill in, then maybe you should worry about getting someone to replace that position. But what if nobody gets hurt at the position your DH can fill? Does that mean you had a weaker bat all season long at DH just because you were worried about your DH not being able to pick a ball out of the dirt at 1B?

That is weird logic to me...if the guy at 1B gets hurt and you move your DH to 1B, then don't you just have a hole at DH?

I think when smart baseball people say "I don't want a DH that can't play in the field" they are talking about DH guys like Betemit, or yes, even Davis...But if you have an All-Star hitting at DH, does it matter if he can field? Not really in my opinion, just sign the guy who can play 1B to be a back-up who comes in sometimes when your 1B needs a break...

And if you think you need a guy that can come in and play 1B on a regular basis, that probably means you don't have a first baseman...kind of like "A team with two QBs is a team with no QB"...

Summary: It is possible that a hole at DH, or even a sub-par option, is still a hole at a position...and it should be treated as an important position until the pitchers start hitting again...which I hope never happens...but that's another argument...

[DrinkinWithFermi]

Butler never hit more than 21 homers before this season, and no one could have ever guesses he'd hit 29 this season. His career average is .304 not .320. If he continues for the next 10 seasons to produce closer to the numbers he did this year then I agree that he with you he will have HOF numbers. If he goes back to averaging .304 with 16 homers and 80 ish RBI then he's very likely not a HOF player IMO. Headley plays in one of the worst parks in baseball for power hitters in San Diego.

And as far as the stupid tongue sticking comment....Are you a Royal fan or not? Thts all I was implying.

Butler hit 44 or more doubles in each of the 3 seasons prior to 2012- Stevie Wonder could've seen that the power was coming. The guy is going to collect his 1000th career hit in May of his age 27 season. The dude's well on his way to Cooperstown at his current pace.

And no, I'm not a Royals fan- not that my allegiances as a fan have anything to do with BB's obvious status as an elite hitter. Shall we also look for some witches or Communists while we're chasing red herrings?