Jump to content

Orioles offer Wieters extension, but no deal seems close

Greg

By Greg
in Orioles Talk

Recommended Posts

Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

Posted
Posted
A's and Rays (among others) have done fairly well over the years with low cost catching platoons. Yankees are doing quite well at it this year also. As stated, our current lack of catching depth doesn't help much. Doesn't mean we can't put something together over the next year or so.

Well, in 2012:

O's had a .729 OPS at C, 25 HR, 93 RBI

A's had a .587 OPS at C, 14 HR, 69 RBI

Rays had a .636 OPS at C, 11 HR, 59 RBI.

Advantage Orioles, I'd say. 2011 is similar.

I'll admit the Yankees are close to us right now offensively, though we'll see where it is when the year is over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 116
  • Created
  • Last Reply
sevastras All-Star

sevastras

Posted
Posted
I think the point is that the team has done quite well overall, not that they've done so well at the catching position itself.

When you have elite pitching, making your catcher a nonfactor is quite easy. With our less than elite pitching, Wieters still looks great. What would the discussion be with Wieters if he had Price, Shields, Moore, Hellickson, and that bum Cobb that had that huge ERA of 4.03?

I realize that it is very difficult to quantify the impact that Wieters has had with our subpar pitching and if he has really improved any of their performances or not. It is really impossible if you ask me. But when you say that Tampa has done quite well without a top catcher, I have a hard time lending merit to that argument when the worst SP they have sports a 4.03 through an entire season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

Posted
Posted
When did they have the chance? Should they have picked a catcher instead of Longoria? A catcher instead of Price? They picked best player available. You can't hit on every pick. Last I looked not too many teams hit on that elite catching prospect you talk of. The point is that you can win without an elite catcher just like you can win without an elite 2B. The point is not to overpay for very good and NOT ELITE.

No they didn't.

They had Posey at #1 on their board in 2008 and they picked Beckham instead because they didn't want to pay Posey's price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
CA-ORIOLE Hangout Grand Counsel

CA-ORIOLE

Posted
Posted
Well, in 2012:

O's had a .729 OPS at C, 25 HR, 93 RBI

A's had a .587 OPS at C, 14 HR, 69 RBI

Rays had a .636 OPS at C, 11 HR, 59 RBI.

Advantage Orioles, I'd say. 2011 is similar.

I'll admit the Yankees are close to us right now offensively, though we'll see where it is when the year is over.

1. You need to look at WAR and not raw stats.

2. It was a particularly poor year for the A's last year.

3. What did they pay for those guys?

4. What will they be paying for similar guys in the future?

5. Yeah, Wieters has been good, but what will we be paying for the future as compared to what type of production he likely be giving?

I guess I view Wieters similar to Markakis. Wieters more harshly because of suspected durability and versatility issues. They'd be nice guys to have longer term, but probably not very good economics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

Posted
Posted
When did they have the chance? Should they have picked a catcher instead of Longoria? A catcher instead of Price?

You conveniently omitted Tim Beckham, picked no. 1 when Posey was available. ;)

It's great having 20/20 hindsight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
scOtt Hangout Grand Counsel

scOtt

Posted
Posted
My point is that CS has a lot to do with the ability of pitchers to be quick to the plate. Improved times to the plate would/could be a reason for the increased % of CS by Wieters.

I think all the emphasis on TTTP (in the general sense, any club) gives the catcher the chance to be better at CS. Matt takes advantage of those chances. Better than most or all others. That's the diff imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
AlbionHero Major Leaguer

AlbionHero

Posted
Posted

The biggest thing to me is the consistent trend that defensive catchers fall off by the time they hit 30. It happened to Pudge, it happened to Gary Carter, its happened to pretty much any significant defensive catcher out there. So do you sign Wieters to a big contract, knowing you'll probably only get an average defensive catcher with a .750 OPS past 30? If its like a 5 year, 50-60 million dollar contract, maybe. Anything more than that isn't something the Orioles should do, especially with the other players also vying for extensions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

Posted
Posted
The biggest thing to me is the consistent trend that defensive catchers fall off by the time they hit 30. It happened to Pudge, it happened to Gary Carter, its happened to pretty much any significant defensive catcher out there. So do you sign Wieters to a big contract, knowing you'll probably only get an average defensive catcher with a .750 OPS past 30? If its like a 5 year, 50-60 million dollar contract, maybe. Anything more than that isn't something the Orioles should do, especially with the other players also vying for extensions.

Yadier disagrees. That being said I am long on record in not being interested in extending Wieters past ~32.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
AlbionHero Major Leaguer

AlbionHero

Posted
Posted
Yadier disagrees. That being said I am long on record in not being interested in extending Wieters past ~32.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=7007&position=C

Yadier is having his worst defensive year in a long time and he just hit 30. Its not really a huge sample, but I don't think he suddenly defies that trend or anything either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
AlbionHero Major Leaguer

AlbionHero

Posted
Posted
Last season he turned 30, he won the Fielding Bible award and the Gold Glove.

You see, this is what I mean by nitpicking. You don't suddenly get worse on your birthday. Its a gradual trend that around 30 years old catchers decline defensively.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

Posted
Posted
Yadier is also 5' 11" tall and not 6' 5".

Which is definitely a factor in why I wouldn't extend him past 32.

I am down with, and coined the phrase (I think) Catch him into the ground and let someone else pay for the decline.

I will say that getting rid of him before they have an adequate replacement will be catastrophic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
sevastras All-Star

sevastras

Posted
Posted
Let's see. You talk about Wieters possible effect on the pitching staff and then mention Tampa Bay with a run of the mill catcher and a great pitching staff. Hmmm.

Not even sure what you are trying to get at here. We are talking about a team that had one of the best pitching staffs in baseball and a nonfactor catcher and a team that pieced together a pitching staff and a great catcher. The team with the great catcher made it to the playoffs, the team with the nonfactor catcher didnt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

Posted
Posted
You see, this is what I mean by nitpicking. You don't suddenly get worse on your birthday. Its a gradual trend that around 30 years old catchers decline defensively.

All players decline defensively as they age. Defensive is a youth aligned skill. It is very possible that Trout's best defensive year is already behind him.

I think Yadier has a long way to fall before he isn't plus on defense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing


  • Posts

    • Yossarian
      Anyone tried the Immaculate Grid game?

      By Yossarian · Posted

      Got my all-time low rarity score on today's game - 6.
    • Baseball fandom
      Elias: Hyde will be back

      By Baseball fandom · Posted

      Lol.  I give up. Next. 
    • Baseball fandom
      Elias: Hyde will be back

      By Baseball fandom · Posted

      41 freaking years and here's this guy with the name pickles telling me I should be happy with 91 wins and getting owned in the playoffs again. 😂 😂 I saw a team that looked terrible the second half and probably didn't even deserve that spot the way they were playing .
    • Baseball fandom
      Elias: Hyde will be back

      By Baseball fandom · Posted

      Lol. Here's the funny they know more then you know. Typical Oriole fan who's happy with getting punched in the mouth. 
    • e16bball
      Walltimore

      By e16bball · Posted

      I don’t like the wall. I think it’s affecting our hitters. I’ve mentioned before that I think it has totally warped Mountcastle into something he was never really meant to be. The guy came up as a pull-heavy HR hitter, and in his first season-plus (725 PAs), he puts up 38 HRs and a 116 wRC+. Since then, the wRC+ is down to 110, and his approach has totally changed, with his pull numbers plummeting (down from 39% in 2021 to less than 28% this year). He still hits the ball hard, but constantly underachieves his batted ball data — probably because he’s trying to avoid the pull field and hitting balls to the deepest parts of pretty much every other park. Will the same thing happen to Mayo? Maybe he has more pure power, but it’s always going to be a challenge for a RH slugger to survive with that wall. So much harder to do damage.   Beyond that, I think it’s also creating a serious risk of changing our LH hitters’ approaches too. These guys (Henderson, Holliday, Cowser, 2/3 of Adley) have come up with a reputation for being able to drive the ball to all fields. But how long does that continue when they just can’t hit it out to the opposite field? Our LH hitters had a combined 44 wRC+ at OPACY, and only one HR. They had the 3rd most balls hit to LF at home by LHHs, but the lowest wRC+ of any team on those balls (for the second straight year). The Royals, ironically enough, were the only team that was lower than a 70 wRC+ — that’s how much worse our lefties fared going oppo (at OPACY) than everyone else’s. By player: Gunnar Henderson: 112 wRC+ / .160 ISO (51 PAs) Adley Rutschman: 10 wRC+ / .026 ISO (38 PAs) Anthony Santander: 14 wRC+ / .095 ISO (43 PAs) Colton Cowser: 58 wRC+ / .057 ISO (36 PAs) Ryan O’Hearn: 47 wRC+ / .091 ISO (55 PAs) Cedric Mullins: 23 wRC+ / .100 ISO (41 PAs) Jackson Holliday: -72 wRC+ / .000 ISO (16 PAs)   On the road, they had a combined 126 wRC+ (with 9 HRs) going to left field, so it’s not like they’re bad at it. It’s just Death Valley out there in LF for them at OPACY.  How long will it be until these LH guys just start going full pull-happy? Essentially, the opposite of what’s happened with Mountcastle. When (a) your team’s philosophy is to focus on doing damage and (b) you can’t DO damage to the opposite field — the rational endpoint is just to try to pull everything. I don’t think that’s a good outcome. I think it makes them much worse hitters in the other 81 games, and I think it’s a terrible waste of a bunch of really talented hitters with all-field abilities.
    • Pickles
      Elias: Hyde will be back

      By Pickles · Posted

      Which core players beside Adley Rutschman struggled?
    • Pat Kelly
      Elias: Hyde will be back

      By Pat Kelly · Posted

      The entire commentary on Hyde and the team seems odd but have to admit there does seem to be something off.   Team seemed adrift for most of the 2nd half.  A very talented team went off the rails midway through the season mostly due to core players struggling and rookies not performing or filling in adequately for a few injured starters.    None of the position player trade line acquisitions performed that well.     Hyde seemed in over his head or at a loss on how to correct things, but he must have convinced Elias that he has a plan to fix things.  Curious to see what happens with the coaching staff.  

  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...