TT: Buck needs to make a decision on Brian Roberts

[Tony-OH]

There's a difference between being a critic and having an agenda you refuse to deviate from. I'm a Roberts critic, I wish we'd give Flaherty the job vs RHP and start Roberts vs LHP - but if Roberts OPS is 1.000 from here on out I'll build a statue to Brian Roberts in my front yard and polish it with a toothbrush daily. There are some posters on here that never change their tune - but I think for the most part posters here have a strong take - but if the evidence mounts to persuade them their take is wrong - they are more than happy to revise their opinion. Anyone adult taking time from their day to post on an Orioles message board in the end wants what's best for the team - and Brian Roberts OPSing 1.000 would be very good for the team indeed.

Great post that is lost on some unfortunately. My position on Roberts is pretty clear, but Lord knows I'm not going to be upset if he proves me wrong and plays well the rest of the season. Unfortunately, there are people around here that think the second you are critical of something or someone you suddenly are "rooting" against the Orioles or the player. I know I don't root against anyone wearing an Orioles uniform regardless of what my stating opinion is about them.

Roberts is not going to keep OPSing 1.000+. He'll go back to the player he is at this point in his career, but if he doesn't, and he has one last hurrah left, well good for him and us.

[Tony-OH]

Not gonna deny that I had this same thought when that ball went up the middle. BUT, Flaherty and Casilla combined wouldn't have had 3 hits in that game. So there's two sides to every story, I guess.

Huh? How do you know that? Flaherty just had a three hit game. That's a ludicrous statement. The chances are that most players on a given night are not going to have a three-hit night, but both Flaherty and Casilla have had those nights before. We have no idea how they would have performed.

BTW, just to set the record straight, even I'm not pulling Roberts out of the lineup while he's on this hot streak. I'm a big proponent of going with the hot hand. However, after he goes back to the inevitable, I'll be hoping Flaherty sees more time against righties. It's a hope that I have no faith will occur without an injury to Roberts though.

[auzzy98]

Huh? How do you know that? Flaherty just had a three hit game. That's a ludicrous statement. The chances are that most players on a given night are not going to have a three-hit night, but both Flaherty and Casilla have had those nights before. We have no idea how they would have performed.

BTW, just to set the record straight, even I'm not pulling Roberts out of the lineup while he's on this hot streak. I'm a big proponent of going with the hot hand. However, after he goes back to the inevitable, I'll be hoping Flaherty sees more time against righties. It's a hope that I have no faith will occur without an injury to Roberts though.

Flaherty has had ONE 3 hit game this year in 69 games played, Casilla has 0...

[Tony-OH]

Well let's see. A loyal Oriole for 12 years to start off. One of the best 2B of the last decade. Good hitter with RISP. Had a great ST, which showed he can still hit and contribute at a high level. Has hit for a better avg. than Flaherty this year. He can work a count, Flaherty cant. Just to name a few things

I thought I put this to rest a while back but I guess I'll to do this again:

Roberts Pitches/per PA - 3.81

Major League Average - 3.78

Flaherty: 3.75

There is .06 difference in pitches per plate appearances between the two. You also conveniently left off defense and power.

What Roberts does do way better than Flaherty is handle the bat. That means having the ability to more runners over, hit sacrifice flies, or generally make a productive out. Roberts has become quite good at that portion of his game and is part of the reason why I think he'd be a good pinch hitter for this team.

Think about this for a second, why not have a guy who will provide better defense and power potential all game and then have the better bat handler available late in games to pinch hit? Even if you believe Roberts is going to hit better than Flaherty, is the difference worth the loss in range and arm for most of the game and having a worse option to PH late in games?

[Redskins Rick]

I thought I put this to rest a while back but I guess I'll to do this again:

Roberts Pitches/per PA - 3.81

Major League Average - 3.78

Flaherty: 3.75

There is .06 difference in pitches per plate appearances between the two. You also conveniently left off defense and power.

What Roberts does do way better than Flaherty is handle the bat. That means having the ability to more runners over, hit sacrifice flies, or generally make a productive out. Roberts has become quite good at that portion of his game and is part of the reason why I think he'd be a good pinch hitter for this team.

Think about this for a second, why not have a guy who will provide better defense and power potential all game and then have the better bat handler available late in games to pinch hit? Even if you believe Roberts is going to hit better than Flaherty, is the difference worth the loss in range and arm for most of the game and having a worse option to PH late in games?

At this point the failure of the pen is way more damaging to the team, then who is playing 2nd base.

Hopefully, its just a funk and they will get it out of their system.

[Tony-OH]

Flaherty has had ONE 3 hit game this year in 69 games played, Casilla has 0...

Casilla has 25 games in his career in which he's gotten three hits or more. This is a silly argument. No one is saying they were going to get three hits, but to say they would not have gotten three hits is impossible to prove. All we do know is that most likely both of them knock that ball down.

[Tony-OH]

At this point the failure of the pen is way more damaging to the team, then who is playing 2nd base.

Hopefully, its just a funk and they will get it out of their system.

Did anyone say anything different? Heck, I said on the radio the other day the exact same thing about the relief pitching. The last time I checked, this thread isn't called "The biggest reason why the Orioles are slumping." It's another discussion on Roberts.

Do I think that starting Roberts is the reason the Orioles have played poorly of late? Nope. But I do still think this team would be better off playing Flaherty against right-handers more times than not although I would not pull Roberts out while he's hot.

[auzzy98]

I thought I put this to rest a while back but I guess I'll to do this again:

Roberts Pitches/per PA - 3.81

Major League Average - 3.78

Flaherty: 3.75

There is .06 difference in pitches per plate appearances between the two. You also conveniently left off defense and power.

What Roberts does do way better than Flaherty is handle the bat. That means having the ability to more runners over, hit sacrifice flies, or generally make a productive out. Roberts has become quite good at that portion of his game and is part of the reason why I think he'd be a good pinch hitter for this team.

Think about this for a second, why not have a guy who will provide better defense and power potential all game and then have the better bat handler available late in games to pinch hit? Even if you believe Roberts is going to hit better than Flaherty, is the difference worth the loss in range and arm for most of the game and having a worse option to PH late in games?

I'm not saying that is a bad option, and yes no one can prove whether they would have gotten the three hits for sure, but we know Roberts did, and we know Flaherty came in to pinch hit and promply hit into a DP.

Roberts range is a problem and he should have gotten to that ball. But no one is talking about his ability to turn the DP. It looks really good. He turned a nice one late in the game with a flip to hardy. And when he takes a throw from Hardy and relays to first, i haven't noticed him not being able to get it there in time...so his arm must not be that bad. BRob has also been hitting the ball with power lately So really the only advantage Flaherty has over Roberts is better range IMO. Not enough to lose his bat for 8 innings, with as much as he can do with it.

[Dipper9]

Huh? How do you know that? Flaherty just had a three hit game. That's a ludicrous statement. The chances are that most players on a given night are not going to have a three-hit night, but both Flaherty and Casilla have had those nights before. We have no idea how they would have performed.

BTW, just to set the record straight, even I'm not pulling Roberts out of the lineup while he's on this hot streak. I'm a big proponent of going with the hot hand. However, after he goes back to the inevitable, I'll be hoping Flaherty sees more time against righties. It's a hope that I have no faith will occur without an injury to Roberts though.

Damnit. Caught me. I guess my MUS percentage just went up a tick!

[Dipper9]

Great post that is lost on some unfortunately. My position on Roberts is pretty clear, but Lord knows I'm not going to be upset if he proves me wrong and plays well the rest of the season. Unfortunately, there are people around here that think the second you are critical of something or someone you suddenly are "rooting" against the Orioles or the player. I know I don't root against anyone wearing an Orioles uniform regardless of what my stating opinion is about them.

Roberts is not going to keep OPSing 1.000+. He'll go back to the player he is at this point in his career, but if he doesn't, and he has one last hurrah left, well good for him and us.

Its one thing to be a critic of BRob, which is perfectly acceptable. But there are some people on here saying Brian is the reason we are playing bad, and site our record with him in the games as "evidence" to back up their claims. It's these posters that I don't understand the vile they have towards the little fella.

[Redskins Rick]

Its one thing to be a critic of BRob, which is perfectly acceptable. But there are some people on here saying Brian is the reason we are playing bad, and site our record with him in the games as "evidence" to back up their claims. It's these posters that I don't understand the vile they have towards the little fella.

Like I said earlier, never seen so much love and hatred of the same guy by so many different people.

You would think some of the really outrageous and absurd vile things they have posted about the guy, would be consider trolling on here, trying to flame things, but I guess not.

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

BTW, just to set the record straight, even I'm not pulling Roberts out of the lineup while he's on this hot streak. I'm a big proponent of going with the hot hand. However, after he goes back to the inevitable,

This is where I disagree. You make it sound like 2011 (as you stated before earlier) is what he is most likely to regress to. Why?

The guy has battled injuries since 2009. Hell, look at 2010.. Not bad at all with more plate appearances than 2011.

I guess that's the hard part about this whole debate. We don't really know the outcome, and you can use the stats in your favor.

Again, we'll just have to see how things play out, but I really feel like 2010-2012 won't help us in predicting Roberts line now because he was battling injuries and not able to settle in.

[auzzy98]

This is where I disagree. You make it sound like 2011 (as you stated before earlier) is what he is most likely to regress to. Why?

The guy has battled injuries since 2009. Hell, look at 2010.. Not bad at all with more plate appearances than 2011.

I guess that's the hard part about this whole debate. We don't really know the outcome, and you can use the stats in your favor.

Again, we'll just have to see how things play out, but I really feel like 2010-2012 won't help us in predicting Roberts line now because he was battling injuries and not able to settle in.

Love it. I really wish more ppl had an outlook like this

[Tony-OH]

Its one thing to be a critic of BRob, which is perfectly acceptable. But there are some people on here saying Brian is the reason we are playing bad, and site our record with him in the games as "evidence" to back up their claims. It's these posters that I don't understand the vile they have towards the little fella.

But some people emphasize this point of view for all of us who have been critical of Roberts. The team has played to a worse winning percentage since Roberts was instilled as starter. I doubt it's only because of Roberts, but it is a truthful statement that the Orioles record is better with Roberts not in the lineup this year.

[Tony-OH]

This is where I disagree. You make it sound like 2011 (as you stated before earlier) is what he is most likely to regress to. Why?

The guy has battled injuries since 2009. Hell, look at 2010.. Not bad at all with more plate appearances than 2011.

I guess that's the hard part about this whole debate. We don't really know the outcome, and you can use the stats in your favor.

Again, we'll just have to see how things play out, but I really feel like 2010-2012 won't help us in predicting Roberts line now because he was battling injuries and not able to settle in.

Quite simply because I've never seen a player come back after missing so much time at 35-years old and become a valuable player again. The people who want Roberts in the lineup have to "hope" he becomes that player again. Like you said, what we have is a mountain of statistical evidence that suggests otherwise. Could Roberts be that outlier who comes back and becomes productive once again, sure, it could happen. I just don't think it's likely long term. His lack of speed and range is pretty glaring right now and speed was always a big part of his game.

The scout in me sees him having some nice at bats, but it also sees a lot of lazy flyballs and weak out when he was not in this hot streak. The scout in me sees a below average defensive second baseman. Not a "kill you if you play him there guy" but a guy that will cost you at times. The scout in me sees a ball player who is tentative on the base baths and a guy flying out a bit too much for his power level.

I see a lot of negatives in Flaherty's bat as well, so I can understand why some want to give Roberts the benefit of the doubt, but I just think ultimately Flaherty brings more to the team than Roberts does as an every day second baseman against right-handers.