Ichiro Suzuki Becomes Sixth Professional Player with 4,000 Career Hits

[CA-ORIOLE]

I absolutely do. Easily. Unfortunately, he was not given that opportunity. Ted Williams would have had a couple extra fine years except for a war. So would Bob Feller. Sandy Koufax probably could have benefited from Tom John surgery.

Ok, then take it for what it's worth. Nobody is saying it should go in the ML record books. It's a pretty big deal and deserves recognition. The world isn't just the good old USA anymore.

[weams]

I count them for Ichiro because Ichiro was playing at the highest level that he could have at the time. Similar to players who were stars in the Negro League, there was nothing Ichiro could have done to join MLB earlier than he did. Guys that play in the Mexican League or Carribean Leagues generally had the opportunity to sign with an MLB team, an opportunity that is not afforded to Japanese amateur players.

You got me there. The Negro Leagues were a aberration that occurred because of a history that none of us can defend. I still don't add those records to MLB ones. But unlike those who choose to play in a league other than the MLB, those greats were excluded from that opportunity and there is no excuse for that.

[weams]

Ok, then take it for what it's worth. Nobody is saying it should go in the ML record books. It's a pretty big deal and deserves recognition. The world isn't just the good old USA anymore.

I never said that it should be ignored. I just made the comment that it is not the same as Ty or Pete. But it is still an accomplishment.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I never said that it should be ignored. I just made the comment that it is not the same as Ty or Pete. But it is still an accomplishment.

Like a lot of things in baseball, people will take their own contexts and opinions to debate the merits of the greatest players of the game. Certainly Ichiro's unique circumstances and accomplishments (including his record in the US and Japan) should and will be part of that that debate. Yes, that includes comparisons to Ty Cobb and Pete Rose imo.

[DrungoHazewood]

I absolutely do. Easily. Unfortunately, he was not given that opportunity. Ted Williams would have had a couple extra fine years except for a war.

Two wars!

So would Bob Feller.

I think WWII was what kept Feller's arm attached to the shoulder. Without the war he probably tries to throw 2500 innings before he turns 25. The Indians actually let him throw 343 innings at the age of 22, which pretty much nobody had done since they invented pitching rotations. I really think taking three and a half years off kept him from having a Smoky Joe Wood/Steve Avery type of career.

Sandy Koufax probably could have benefited from Tom John surgery.

Had Koufax been born in 1975 he probably would have been turned into a reliever, or maybe had a career more like Randy Johnson. Starting 33-35 times a year, mid-200s in innings, some injuries derailing some seasons, but modern medicine pushing him back out there.

Of course if Ichiro had come to the States at 18 someone might have tried to "fix" his unorthodox (for the US) swing and he ends up trying to drive every pitch and learn better plate discipline and becomes Juan Pierre.

[hoosiers]

I just find too many variables in saying I'm confident that Ichiro would have gotten 4,000 hits if he started in the US as opposed to Japan. Better pitching, would he have gotten involved in steroid use, etc. I think its great that he combined 4,000 hits in the two leagues, but there is a reason that guys like Tuffy Rhodes who hit 13 HR's and had 44 RBI in 6 years as a pro in the ML, but hit .325 with a .380 OBP and hit 288 HR's in 8 years in Japan was so successful. Rhodes twice had 50+ HR seasons in Japan, and career .659 OPS in the MLB. Some players are special, but its much much easier to find failed MLB players who became stars in Japan then it is to find Japanese stars who came stateside and remained stars.

I don't think there is any question that Ichiro would be near 4,000 if he had been playing in the US the entire time.

I am really amazed at the number of high quality HoF bats we have been able to see the past decade or so between Ichiro and Miguel and I would throw Jeter (difficult to admit) and Mauer into that discussion.