Justify keeping Bedard or Roberts

[wildcard]

Strong pitching and defense is the stated model.

I look at the 2006 Tigers as the model for the O's. Very strong pitching and an 820 run offense. Three teams in the AL Central had 90 or more wins in 2006. It was a tough division.

I think the O's have the pitching in house to become like the 2006 Tigers. They need to carefully trade and sign players to build the offense to the 820 level while the pitching matures. Keeping Bedard is key to this strategy. That is what I am wanting to see happen.

[BillySmith]

Strong pitching and defense is the stated model.

I look at the 2006 Tigers as the model for the O's. Very strong pitching and an 820 run offense. Three teams in the AL Central had 90 or more wins in 2006. It was a tough division.

I think the O's have the pitching in house to become like the 2006 Tigers. They need to carefully trade and sign players to build the offense to the 820 level while the pitching matures. Keeping Bedard is key to this strategy. That is what I am want to see happen.

I don't know why there hasn't been more acknowledgment by the board of the very real possibility that our pitching is set for years. In both starters and pen candidates, we are young, close to major league ready, and good, solid upside for everyone. The experience isn't necessarily there yet, but I think our pitching is in the best shape it's been in for years and years.

The offense? Well, let's get Wieters and Reimold up ASAP and please get a real first baseman.

TWO QUESTIONS FOR EVERYONE:

(1) Is this the best pitching crop we've had in the past 10 years?

(2) If you replaced Millar with say Tex (and i suppose bring in Corey Patterson again), would your opinion on the chances of this team change? In other words, if we had a stud first baseman, could we at least sniff a wildcard?

[Delduck]

I don't have the energy to make a long reply to this post since a lot of my answers are in the post above yours, but I will say that even if we are able to compete in the next three years with Bedard and Roberts, we still will have done nothing for the long term healthy of this franchise. Long term, the organization would suffer.

I'm not going to go as far as five years though, since a lot could happen between now and then. However, eventually Bedard and Roberts will be gone and will have little to show from them when they actually do leave/decline.

This is the part of the argument that drives me nuts. By this logic you are saying we as fans should never expect to see any of our young players play their careers in Balt., because hey we will have little to show for them once they retire or decline. Eddie Murray, Jim Plamer, Cal Ripken, Scott McGregor, Moose etc... all should have been traded around age 28 or so, because we got little to nothing when they retired/declined.

I am sorry but keeping our good players is not the end of this team. A few smart trades or some of our pitching surplus and to get some of the dead weight off this team, and some of our more promising position players make some more strides like they have been. We can have a pretty good little team going, and add a FA here and there (a good one not a retread) and this will be a competitive team. Add a some more solid drafts and you will see this club start to stabilize for the future.

Sometimes it is not all about stats, forecasting and such, but it is about just being a fan and enjoying the game. Buying a jersey and knowing that player will be with the team for more then a couple of years.

[Dreadnought]

5. You seem unaware of one of the worst front offices in baseball history with Syd Thrift. We had very little minor league talent, we didn't draft well, and we were an incompetent organization. Sure, we had some players that "made it", but not nearly enough. Most of the players you listed were not top talents.

Jim Hunter in his Hot Stove show repeatedly praised Syd Thrift as a GM, particularly his ability at making trades and developing young talent. This has been a constant theme of Hunter's during the Angelos years: The Warehouse is moving forward and it's only a matter of time. I would hate to see Hunter proven wrong; it would destroy my belief in his baseball acumen.

[Sports Guy]

This is the part of the argument that drives me nuts. By this logic you are saying we as fans should never expect to see any of our young players play their careers in Balt., because hey we will have little to show for them once they retire or decline. Eddie Murray, Jim Plamer, Cal Ripken, Scott McGregor, Moose etc... all should have been traded around age 28 or so, because we got little to nothing when they retired/declined.

Those guys were around with very good to great teams..Keeping them was essential.

I am sorry but keeping our good players is not the end of this team.

It wil set us back more years though.

A few smart trades or some of our pitching surplus and to get some of the dead weight off this team, and some of our more promising position players make some more strides like they have been.

What you are saying here, basically, is that you want us to trade our garbage for good players..Then, you are relying on this franchise to pick and choose what young arms to trade and do it right and then, on top of that, you are relying on our young guys to develop...Yes, your idea could work, I won't deny that. But it isn't likely to work as well as trading these guys AND then doing what you are saying.

Sometimes it is not all about stats, forecasting and such, but it is about just being a fan and enjoying the game. Buying a jersey and knowing that player will be with the team for more then a couple of years.

Do you see those attendance figures? Notice how less and less fans are enjoying watching this team?

I would enjoy watching this team much more with BRob and Bedard dealt and some of those young players being here than those 2 on the team.

[Delduck]

Those guys were around with very good to great teams..Keeping them was essential.

It wil set us back more years though.

What you are saying here, basically, is that you want us to trade our garbage for good players..Then, you are relying on this franchise to pick and choose what young arms to trade and do it right and then, on top of that, you are relying on our young guys to develop...Yes, your idea could work, I won't deny that. But it isn't likely to work as well as trading these guys AND then doing what you are saying.

Do you see those attendance figures? Notice how less and less fans are enjoying watching this team?

I would enjoy watching this team much more with BRob and Bedard dealt and some of those young players being here than those 2 on the team.

I am saying AM make some more trades like he did with Trax last year.

Wait one second. You have several times said to trade some of our young pitching. Now you are saying it wont work??

"One thing you do with young players, besides play them, is trade them.

Now, i am against trading Penn but if the Orioles look at Penn and Liz and say that their worth in a trade is worth more what they think they will produce at the ML level, then i understand trading them.

In other words, they need to evaluate those who need to go and those who should stay."

"We could use some pitching depth to obtain a young second baseman(perhaps Callaspo?) and first baseman"

Those were just a couple I have time to look up.

And as far as attendance goes, what do you expect when you have a team mostly made up of older players that are not good. There have been several SR. posters here say they go to the Yard to see EB pitch, and I if I were to make a guess the attendance those days he pitches are higher. You put some of the young talent we got from the Miggy trade, make some more Trax like trades to get some of the dead weight off the team, bring up Reimold this year and Wieters at the end of this year or by opening day next year, you may start to see more fans in the seats. I know I'll watch more games on TV, and the TV ratings may be more important then the fans in the seats.

[Sports Guy]

I am saying AM make some more trades like he did with Trax last year.

Wait one second. You have several times said to trade some of our young pitching. Now you are saying it wont work??

No, I am saying this organization has held onto the young piching and has been very reluctant to move it almost out of fear and then, when they have(Maine) they made a mistake...It is a lot to ask this organization to do this correctly IMO.

And, on top of this, AM has shown he wants as much pitching as possible.

[Tx Oriole]

There is not any way keeping those two players helps the team. Bedard has two years left. We all know it is not much chance he will staY in Baltimore and Roberts won't either whne his contract is up. But hell looks like they are staying this year. Oh well i will still cheer for the O's no matter what.

[wildcard]

The big question is whether the team can be good in 2009, and about to be very good for 2010 without trading them. In my mind, that is the only big dilemma: can Baltimore be a fun place to play before the end of 2009 without trading them. For me, that is the issue. I think all the other stuff is mostly echo-chamber hype.

I think this is the central question for the O's. If MacPhail is good he can make this team competitive in 2009. He does that by:

1) Evaluating the young pitchers, keeping the best and trading some for position players.

2) Understanding that these pitchers will mature over the next year.

3) The return of Ray for 2009.

4) The maturing for Reimold for a outfield of Reimold, Markakis and Scott.

5) The signing of Tex or Dunn

6) The signing for Bedard and Roberts by the beginning for the 2009 season.

We need to give MacPhail time to see if this approach will work. If it does, the O's are set to contend for a long time. If it does not, the O's trade Bedard and Roberts next off season.

[Dipper9]

I think this is the central question for the O's. If MacPhail is good he can make this team competitive in 2009. He does that by:

1) Evaluating the young pitchers, keeping the best and trading some for position players.

2) Understanding that these pitchers will mature over the next year.

3) The return of Ray for 2009.

4) The maturing for Reimold for a outfield of Reimold, Markakis and Scott.

5) The signing of Tex or Dunn

6) The signing for Bedard and Roberts by the beginning for the 2009 season.

We need to give MacPhail time to see if this approach will work. If it does, the O's are set to contend for a long time. If it does not, the O's trade Bedard and Roberts next off season.

If we still have the killer B's next offseason, do we hold them while we go full tilt at Tex? I would say if Tex ca be signed, The Bs would be much more willing to sign extensions. Your thoughts?

[wildcard]

If we still have the killer B's next offseason, do we hold them while we go full tilt at Tex? I would say if Tex ca be signed, The Bs would be much more willing to sign extensions. Your thoughts?

If Bedard and Roberts want to see a commitment to winning by the O's, signing Tex or Dunn would be a heck of a commitment.

I think that would get them to sign, if the O's do the other things to help the team win, like trading some pitching prospects for position player.

[wildcard]

No, I am saying this organization has held onto the young piching and has been very reluctant to move it almost out of fear and then, when they have(Maine) they made a mistake...It is a lot to ask this organization to do this correctly IMO.

And, on top of this, AM has shown he wants as much pitching as possible.

I think MacPhail sees young starting pitching as more then essential to being a winner. He also see it as a commodity that ever team both needs and wants. If the O's have a surplus of young pitching, then other teams will continue to offer attractive players in trade.

[Fan4Life]

If Bedard and Roberts want to see a commitment to winning by the O's, signing Tex or Dunn would be a heck of a commitment.

I think that would get them to sign, if the O's do the other things to help the team win, like trading some pitching prospects for position player.

Do you see it as an either or sitiuation? Salary wise, is there a reason you couldn't sign both of them?

[RShack]

The big question is whether the team can be good in 2009, and about to be very good for 2010 without trading them. In my mind, that is the only big dilemma: can Baltimore be a fun place to play before the end of 2009 without trading them. For me, that is the issue. I think all the other stuff is mostly echo-chamber hype.

I think this is the central question for the O's. If MacPhail is good he can make this team competitive in 2009. He does that by:

1) Evaluating the young pitchers, keeping the best and trading some for position players.

2) Understanding that these pitchers will mature over the next year.

3) The return of Ray for 2009.

4) The maturing for Reimold for a outfield of Reimold, Markakis and Scott.

5) The signing of Tex or Dunn

6) The signing for Bedard and Roberts by the beginning for the 2009 season.

We need to give MacPhail time to see if this approach will work. If it does, the O's are set to contend for a long time. If it does not, the O's trade Bedard and Roberts next off season.

My personal belief is that AM will trade Erik and BRob if, and only if, he gets what he wants. I think that's the right thing to do. The whole idea of there being some requirement that he trade them for the best-available-offer is completely nuts. If he can get what he wants for them, fine. If he can't, then he improves the team via less dramatic means. That's basically what he did with the Twinkies. He made them good without giving up very much. When Bobby Cox took over as GM of ATL, he started with trash and built a perennial post-season organization without relying on big trades. If anything, his problem was that he just could not make a trade. That's the whole reason why they brought Schuerholz in: because Cox built a great system in only 5 years but he could *not* make a trade to save his life.

Big important trades certainly have their place, but around here they are *way* overrated. They are certainly not an instant fix like some folks seem to think they are. They are a very special-case kind of thing. The most important Big Important Trades in O's history didn't look like such great deals when they happened, they only look like that in retrospect. The idea that's getting pushed around here without enough thought is the idea that the O's organization is dependent on Big Important Trades to become good. That's just not true. Never has been, never will be. That's not how baseball generally works. Big Important Trades are *way* too risky for anybody to rely on. They are a *very* high-risk proposition. They're not so much about "buy low, sell high" as they are about spinning the roulette wheel.

[mweb]

The justification for keeping them is there is a chance that the team could compete for the playoffs next year. Now, I think the chance the team makes the playoffs is slim, but it's still there. Getting prospects back for Bedard and BRob will decrease those odds greatly.

So that's the justification, however, I don't think it overrides the justification for trading those two.