Good news about Urrutia

[OFFNY]

.

Speaking of Cuba, I really would have liked to have seen Teofilo Stevenson turn professional, work his was up the ranks, and take on Muhammad Ali, Ken Norton, and Ernie Shavers, and eventually Larry Holmes, Michael Dokes, and Greg Page.

Oh, well. It's water under the bridge now. At least I got to watch Joel Casamayor do his thing several decades later.

[El Gordo]

.

Speaking of Cuba, I really would have liked to have seen Teofilo Stevenson turn professional, work his was up the ranks, and take on Muhammad Ali, Ken Norton, and Ernie Shavers, and eventually Larry Holmes, Michael Dokes, and Greg Page.

Oh, well. It's water under the bridge now. At least I got to watch Joel Casamayor do his thing several decades later.

I liked Teofilo, but he would have been no match for Ali in his prime. No one would have been in my opinion. The rest of those guys, yeah would have been interesting.

[OFFNY]

I liked Teofilo, but he would have been no match for Ali in his prime. No one would have been in my opinion. The rest of those guys, yeah would have been interesting.

He wouldn't have been fighting Ali in his prime.

Stevenson won his first Olympic Gold Medal in 1972, so even if he had turned pro right after that, he would not have been fighting Ali at least until 1975, 1976, or 1977 ........ at which point, Ali was not in his prime.

Also, while we can speculate, I don't think that it can be presumed how well Stevenson would have done as a pro, because he remained an amateur/3-round fighter for his entire career. The only way that we would have know how well he would have been as a pro would have been if he had done so, and worked his way up the ranks like other amateur star boxers do. That didn't happen, so we'll never know for sure what kind of fighter Stevenson would have been at 10-round, 12-round, or 15-round bouts.

[George Zuverink]

Cubans eat the most beans, per capita, of any country in the world. Beans are high-protein food. It's more likely that Urrutia's weight gain is the result of chemical supplements than food intake.

I'd be interested to see whether anyone commenting on Cubans being "undernourished" has actually been to Cuba to see the ballplayers in person. Though I would wager against that possibility.

You would lose that bet. I was in Cuba for a week several years ago as part of a "humanitarian mission" organized by the Key West Literary Seminar. I posted about some of my experiences in a thread I started on 1/23/2013 titled In a World Without the OH. Baseball wasn't the main event, but no man can spend much time in Cuba without rubbing up against it at some point. (It's still a macho society, so it's easier for visiting women to avoid baseball if they want to.) When we weren't handing out medical and school supplies, we were touring, meeting wonderful people, learning about Cuban society, listening to incredible live music, and eating small quantities of uninteresting food. For those that are interested, I'll describe our impressions of and what we learned about the Cuban food supply and diet. I know discussions of politics are verboten, but it is impossible to tell that story without referring to some of Cuba's history. I'll just say that I came to admire the Cuban people, to believe that the average Cuban is better off than he/she was before Castro, and to see clearly that Castro's version of socialism has failed. My personal politics are, if anything, left of center.

I agree that Cuban professional baseball players are not undernourished, but far more are built like Eric Davis than Crush Davis and that is a matter of diet and nutrition. Cespedes and Puig are anomalies; the Henry we saw last year are typical. We saw no signs of malnutrition in the general population. No one starves in Cuba, which was not true before Castro, but the food supply is severely limited in terms of quantity, quality, and variety. The average Cuban's diet may be healthier than the average American's, but if it is, it's a matter of necessity, not conscious lifestyle choice.

I'm not sure of your source that said "Cubans eat the most beans, per capita, of any country in the world." Cubans receive monthly ration cards that sets the amount and price of the food they can buy. The recent monthly per person allocations of staples were 20 ounces of beans, six pounds of rice, three pounds each of white and dark sugar, a dozen eggs, and fifteen ponds of potatoes and/or bananas. (Sure seems like a lot of sugar and starch to me, but not many beans.) Meat is far more limited - one pound of beef and two pounds of chicken per person per month, if available. Cubans with access to foreign currency, e.g., hotel workers and tour guides, can find more variety and quality in the "free exchange" stores. There is a black market for food, particularly meat and fish, but it has its risks:

"...a person can get more jail time for killing a cow than killing a human, under Cuban law. Cow killers can get four to 10 years in prison under a toughened crime law adopted in January (2004). Those who transport or sell the meat from an illegally slaughtered cow can get three to eight years. Providing beef at an unauthorized restaurant or workplace can fetch two to five years. And buying contraband beef is punishable by three months to one year in jail or a steep fine. Authorities also have the power to confiscate all or part of the property of anyone involved in black-market cattle dealings.?

You said, "Cuba is an ecological oasis because it has not been decimated by hyper-industrialization and agro-chemical pollution. " Unfortunately, much of that statement simply is not true yet. When Cuba was being propped up by the Soviet Union, food and cash were much more plentiful. The Soviets provided huge amounts of virtually free petro-based fertilizers and pesticides and advisers to teach the Cubans to apply them intensively each growing season. They also bought the sugar we would longer buy because of the trade embargo. Their motivation was to maintain the appearance of a socialist paradise in the Western hemisphere. When the Soviet Union collapsed, that support disappeared almost immediately. The soil was almost useless. The Cubans had no cash to buy fertilizer and no infrastructure to make their own. There was little fuel to run the farm equipment or bring the workers to the fields. In the roughly five years that followed, the "Special Period," the average adult's caloric intake dropped to about 2,000 per day and weight by 20 pounds. We learned about this from a government provided tour guide, not a Heritage Foundation blog. During this period of near starvation, much of the dairy and breeding livestock was slaughtered for food.

The Cubans are a well-educated, remarkably resourceful people. They've come a long way in terms of establishing sustainable, earth-friendly agricultural practices, but they haven't dug out of the hole from the Special Period. Food is more plentiful, but rationing is still in effect and the shelves at the Cuban peso stores, where most Cubans must buy their food, are usually pretty bare. (The shelves at the "free exchange" stores for people with access to foreign currency are better, but still look like a second rate Dollar General store.) As long as cash is short and the Castro Bros. refuse to unleash the inventiveness of their own people by removing restrictions on private ownership, it will be difficult for them to make rapid progress.

Now, let's play ball, Henry!

[xKHx]

You would lose that bet. I was in Cuba for a week several years ago as part of a "humanitarian mission" organized by the Key West Literary Seminar. I posted about some of my experiences in a thread I started on 1/23/2013 titled In a World Without the OH. Baseball wasn't the main event, but no man can spend much time in Cuba without rubbing up against it at some point. (It's still a macho society, so it's easier for visiting women to avoid baseball if they want to.) When we weren't handing out medical and school supplies, we were touring, meeting wonderful people, learning about Cuban society, listening to incredible live music, and eating small quantities of uninteresting food. For those that are interested, I'll describe our impressions of and what we learned about the Cuban food supply and diet. I know discussions of politics are verboten, but it is impossible to tell that story without referring to some of Cuba's history. I'll just say that I came to admire the Cuban people, to believe that the average Cuban is better off than he/she was before Castro, and to see clearly that Castro's version of socialism has failed. My personal politics are, if anything, left of center.

I agree that Cuban professional baseball players are not undernourished, but far more are built like Eric Davis than Crush Davis and that is a matter of diet and nutrition. Cespedes and Puig are anomalies; the Henry we saw last year are typical. We saw no signs of malnutrition in the general population. No one starves in Cuba, which was not true before Castro, but the food supply is severely limited in terms of quantity, quality, and variety. The average Cuban's diet may be healthier than the average American's, but if it is, it's a matter of necessity, not conscious lifestyle choice.

I'm not sure of your source that said "Cubans eat the most beans, per capita, of any country in the world." Cubans receive monthly ration cards that sets the amount and price of the food they can buy. The recent monthly per person allocations of staples were 20 ounces of beans, six pounds of rice, three pounds each of white and dark sugar, a dozen eggs, and fifteen ponds of potatoes and/or bananas. (Sure seems like a lot of sugar and starch to me, but not many beans.) Meat is far more limited - one pound of beef and two pounds of chicken per person per month, if available. Cubans with access to foreign currency, e.g., hotel workers and tour guides, can find more variety and quality in the "free exchange" stores. There is a black market for food, particularly meat and fish, but it has its risks:

"...a person can get more jail time for killing a cow than killing a human, under Cuban law. Cow killers can get four to 10 years in prison under a toughened crime law adopted in January (2004). Those who transport or sell the meat from an illegally slaughtered cow can get three to eight years. Providing beef at an unauthorized restaurant or workplace can fetch two to five years. And buying contraband beef is punishable by three months to one year in jail or a steep fine. Authorities also have the power to confiscate all or part of the property of anyone involved in black-market cattle dealings.?

You said, "Cuba is an ecological oasis because it has not been decimated by hyper-industrialization and agro-chemical pollution. " Unfortunately, much of that statement simply is not true yet. When Cuba was being propped up by the Soviet Union, food and cash were much more plentiful. The Soviets provided huge amounts of virtually free petro-based fertilizers and pesticides and advisers to teach the Cubans to apply them intensively each growing season. They also bought the sugar we would longer buy because of the trade embargo. Their motivation was to maintain the appearance of a socialist paradise in the Western hemisphere. When the Soviet Union collapsed, that support disappeared almost immediately. The soil was almost useless. The Cubans had no cash to buy fertilizer and no infrastructure to make their own. There was little fuel to run the farm equipment or bring the workers to the fields. In the roughly five years that followed, the "Special Period," the average adult's caloric intake dropped to about 2,000 per day and weight by 20 pounds. We learned about this from a government provided tour guide, not a Heritage Foundation blog. During this period of near starvation, much of the dairy and breeding livestock was slaughtered for food.

The Cubans are a well-educated, remarkably resourceful people. They've come a long way in terms of establishing sustainable, earth-friendly agricultural practices, but they haven't dug out of the hole from the Special Period. Food is more plentiful, but rationing is still in effect and the shelves at the Cuban peso stores, where most Cubans must buy their food, are usually pretty bare. (The shelves at the "free exchange" stores for people with access to foreign currency are better, but still look like a second rate Dollar General store.) As long as cash is short and the Castro Bros. refuse to unleash the inventiveness of their own people by removing restrictions on private ownership, it will be difficult for them to make rapid progress.

Now, let's play ball, Henry!

Can I say, BOOM. Thanks good post

[sportsfan8703]

You think they were starving him while he was suspended?

I remember reading something like he and his wife were hiding on the shore waiting for their boat and ended up having to wait a week longer than they had food rations. I've watched enough survival reality TV to be an expert to say that he could have easily lost 10-15 lbs. Which was as skinny as he was, was probably muscle. That's why it's not absurd to think he put on 20 because he's probably just back at his healthy playing weight. Hopefully that GMO we got here will turn those singles into XBH's.

[El Gordo]

I remember reading something like he and his wife were hiding on the shore waiting for their boat and ended up having to wait a week longer than they had food rations. I've watched enough survival reality TV to be an expert to say that he could have easily lost 10-15 lbs. Which was as skinny as he was, was probably muscle. That's why it's not absurd to think he put on 20 because he's probably just back at his healthy playing weight. Hopefully that GMO we got here will turn those singles into XBH's.

I am not saying it is absurd that he put on 20 lbs. Where have I said that? I am only saying that the typical American diet is probably not even as healthy as a typical Cuban diet. He was suspended for a year before he defected. I doubt he was eating bread and water during that suspension.

[Frobby]

I am not saying it is absurd that he put on 20 lbs. Where have I said that? I am only saying that the typical American diet is probably not even as healthy as a typical Cuban diet. He was suspended for a year before he defected. I doubt he was eating bread and water during that suspension.

I think this argument has run its course. It really doesn't matter what the "typical" Cuban or American diet is. The only thing that matters for this purpose was what Henry Urrutia's diet was for the 2-3 years before he got here, and what it has been since then. And none of us knows that, exactly. All we really know is that Henry faced some difficult circumstances from late 2010 through April 2013, and better circumstances since he arrived here. I can't tell you what he ate before or after.

[gpolee]

Its fun going in circles with you. Just keep posting and you may eventually be correct.

Yep, that would make one of us eventually being correct. Based on your fallacious argument, I'm certain you will never come close.

[gpolee]

You would lose that bet. I was in Cuba for a week several years ago as part of a "humanitarian mission" organized by the Key West Literary Seminar. I posted about some of my experiences in a thread I started on 1/23/2013 titled In a World Without the OH. Baseball wasn't the main event, but no man can spend much time in Cuba without rubbing up against it at some point. (It's still a macho society, so it's easier for visiting women to avoid baseball if they want to.) When we weren't handing out medical and school supplies, we were touring, meeting wonderful people, learning about Cuban society, listening to incredible live music, and eating small quantities of uninteresting food. For those that are interested, I'll describe our impressions of and what we learned about the Cuban food supply and diet. I know discussions of politics are verboten, but it is impossible to tell that story without referring to some of Cuba's history. I'll just say that I came to admire the Cuban people, to believe that the average Cuban is better off than he/she was before Castro, and to see clearly that Castro's version of socialism has failed. My personal politics are, if anything, left of center.

I agree that Cuban professional baseball players are not undernourished, but far more are built like Eric Davis than Crush Davis and that is a matter of diet and nutrition. Cespedes and Puig are anomalies; the Henry we saw last year are typical. We saw no signs of malnutrition in the general population. No one starves in Cuba, which was not true before Castro, but the food supply is severely limited in terms of quantity, quality, and variety. The average Cuban's diet may be healthier than the average American's, but if it is, it's a matter of necessity, not conscious lifestyle choice.

I'm not sure of your source that said "Cubans eat the most beans, per capita, of any country in the world." Cubans receive monthly ration cards that sets the amount and price of the food they can buy. The recent monthly per person allocations of staples were 20 ounces of beans, six pounds of rice, three pounds each of white and dark sugar, a dozen eggs, and fifteen ponds of potatoes and/or bananas. (Sure seems like a lot of sugar and starch to me, but not many beans.) Meat is far more limited - one pound of beef and two pounds of chicken per person per month, if available. Cubans with access to foreign currency, e.g., hotel workers and tour guides, can find more variety and quality in the "free exchange" stores. There is a black market for food, particularly meat and fish, but it has its risks:

"...a person can get more jail time for killing a cow than killing a human, under Cuban law. Cow killers can get four to 10 years in prison under a toughened crime law adopted in January (2004). Those who transport or sell the meat from an illegally slaughtered cow can get three to eight years. Providing beef at an unauthorized restaurant or workplace can fetch two to five years. And buying contraband beef is punishable by three months to one year in jail or a steep fine. Authorities also have the power to confiscate all or part of the property of anyone involved in black-market cattle dealings.?

You said, "Cuba is an ecological oasis because it has not been decimated by hyper-industrialization and agro-chemical pollution. " Unfortunately, much of that statement simply is not true yet. When Cuba was being propped up by the Soviet Union, food and cash were much more plentiful. The Soviets provided huge amounts of virtually free petro-based fertilizers and pesticides and advisers to teach the Cubans to apply them intensively each growing season. They also bought the sugar we would longer buy because of the trade embargo. Their motivation was to maintain the appearance of a socialist paradise in the Western hemisphere. When the Soviet Union collapsed, that support disappeared almost immediately. The soil was almost useless. The Cubans had no cash to buy fertilizer and no infrastructure to make their own. There was little fuel to run the farm equipment or bring the workers to the fields. In the roughly five years that followed, the "Special Period," the average adult's caloric intake dropped to about 2,000 per day and weight by 20 pounds. We learned about this from a government provided tour guide, not a Heritage Foundation blog. During this period of near starvation, much of the dairy and breeding livestock was slaughtered for food.

The Cubans are a well-educated, remarkably resourceful people. They've come a long way in terms of establishing sustainable, earth-friendly agricultural practices, but they haven't dug out of the hole from the Special Period. Food is more plentiful, but rationing is still in effect and the shelves at the Cuban peso stores, where most Cubans must buy their food, are usually pretty bare. (The shelves at the "free exchange" stores for people with access to foreign currency are better, but still look like a second rate Dollar General store.) As long as cash is short and the Castro Bros. refuse to unleash the inventiveness of their own people by removing restrictions on private ownership, it will be difficult for them to make rapid progress.

Now, let's play ball, Henry!

The 'average' Cuban in the 1950s worked 80 hours a week and lived in the most dire poverty in the Western Hemisphere.

[weams]

You think they were starving him while he was suspended?

I think he had no pay.

[gpolee]

You said, "Cuba is an ecological oasis because it has not been decimated by hyper-industrialization and agro-chemical pollution. " Unfortunately, much of that statement simply is not true yet. They've come a long way in terms of establishing sustainable, earth-friendly agricultural practices, but they haven't dug out of the hole from the Special Period.

I was speaking about undeveloped, non-agricultural land that provides safe havens for many endangered specials of animals. I was not claiming anything regarding 'green' agricultural methods, just to be clear.

How many games did you attend? What was the ballpark atmosphere like?

[El Gordo]

I just wish we'd normalize relations with them already, I like their cigars and their rum. I hate having to order them from Canada in little boxes that say T-shirts.