SBNATION: Why Ex-Oriole Bobby Grich will never make the HOF (+ why Jeter should not be first ballot)

[Can_of_corn]

Evidently your not aware of what the voters look at.

So?

Weams stated he was more Hall of Fame worthy not that voters were more likely to put him in.

Totally different concepts.

[ledzepp8]

Evidently your not aware of what the voters look at.

I haven't a care in the world about the HOF or their voters. We're comparing two players, Jeter and Grich.

[fansince71]

I haven't a care in the world about the HOF or their voters. We're comparing two players, Jeter and Grich.

Exactly... and who is more HOF worthy.

[25 Nuggets]

I haven't a care in the world about the HOF or their voters. We're comparing two players, Jeter and Grich.

Then why did you enter the conversation about HOF worthiness?

This thread is supposed to be about Schoop. Maybe we can start a new one about Jeter vs. Grich.

[LA2]

I did. Jeter still has better stats, and 5 rings pretty much ends the conversation.

I never really realized before how good Grich's OBPs were (career .371). Five WS rings may not be a criteria, but it would certainly have helped Grich's reputation if he had done better than .182/.247/.318/.566 in his five playoff seasons (98 total plate appearances), all of which ended in the first round.

[DrungoHazewood]

I never really realized before how good Grich's OBPs were (career .371). Five WS rings may not be a criteria, but it would certainly have helped Grich's reputation if he had done better than .182/.247/.318/.566 in his five playoff seasons (98 total plate appearances), all of which ended in the first round.

Jeter and Grich may have the largest disparity between value and perceived value of any two plausible HOF candidates. Very similar WAR totals, but Grich fell off the HOF ballot after 22 seconds, while Jeter may be unanimous. I thought Grich might be the new Blyleven, the great new cause of the analytical crowd. But it hasn't happened yet. Maybe because he gets competition from Trammell, Whitaker, and others.

[Frobby]

Jeter and Grich may have the largest disparity between value and perceived value of any two plausible HOF candidates. Very similar WAR totals, but Grich fell off the HOF ballot after 22 seconds, while Jeter may be unanimous.

How many years after Grich retired was the first version of WAR invented? Grich simply wasn't being judged on that basis.

[DrungoHazewood]

How many years after Grich retired was the first version of WAR invented? Grich simply wasn't being judged on that basis.

I don't know, 10 maybe? Yes, I am aware that Grich was being judged on batting average and eyeballing defense and the various other things that were done in my youth. But we know better now, we can fix it.

[Frobby]

I don't know, 10 maybe? Yes, I am aware that Grich was being judged on batting average and eyeballing defense and the various other things that were done in my youth. But we know better now, we can fix it.

Yeah, I am not arguing the merits of the situation, just stating the fact. Your point about "perceived value" is dead on, and that has to do with the criteria that were available at the time. I have to admit, even knowing what the stats say, I have a hard time getting my mind around the idea that Grich arguably was a better offensive player than Jeter (OPS+ of 125 for Grich, 116 for Jeter). Somehow, Grich was in the top ten in offensive WAR seven times, even though when you look at any other offensive stat he wasn't that consistently at the top. Top 10 finishes in offensive stats:

OBP - 5

SLG - 2

OPS - 2

Runs - 2

TB - 1

2B - 2

3B - 1

HR - 2

BB - 6

OPS+ - 3

RC - 2

It doesn't really seem to add up. But obviously, it does.

[weams]

Jeter and Grich may have the largest disparity between value and perceived value of any two plausible HOF candidates. Very similar WAR totals, but Grich fell off the HOF ballot after 22 seconds, while Jeter may be unanimous. I thought Grich might be the new Blyleven, the great new cause of the analytical crowd. But it hasn't happened yet. Maybe because he gets competition from Trammell, Whitaker, and others.

Maybe Jeter should not be allowed entrance until the Grich travesty is corrected? After all, Jeter is a steroid era candidate.

[weams]

Yeah, I am not arguing the merits of the situation, just stating the fact. Your point about "perceived value" is dead on, and that has to do with the criteria that were available at the time. I have to admit, even knowing what the stats say, I have a hard time getting my mind around the idea that Grich arguably was a better offensive player than Jeter (OPS+ of 125 for Grich, 116 for Jeter). Somehow, Grich was in the top ten in offensive WAR seven times, even though when you look at any other offensive stat he wasn't that consistently at the top. Top 10 finishes in offensive stats:

OBP - 5

SLG - 2

OPS - 2

Runs - 2

TB - 1

2B - 2

3B - 1

HR - 2

BB - 6

OPS+ - 3

RC - 2

It doesn't really seem to add up. But obviously, it does.

Part of it is that we overvalue Jeter's offensive contributions as well.

[tettleton14]

Postseason performance seems to significantly favor Jeter, though I can't find any defensive measurables.

Grich batted .182 with a .566 OPS in the postseason, in 88 at-bats.

Jeter batted .308 with a .838 OPS in the postseason, in 734 at-bats.

I don't see any postseason WAR statistics. But it's fair to say that Jeter was a productive contributor in the Yankees' 5 World Series runs. That certainly will resonate with voters, and rightfully so.

[Frobby]

Part of it is that we overvalue Jeter's offensive contributions as well.

To a degree, yes. Jeter put up a lot of hits, had a high BA, and scored a lot of runs. He had the good fortune to have a Murderers' Row batting behind him for a lot of the years he was a Yankee. Top 10 finishes, Grich vs. Jeter:

BA - 0 10

OBP - 5 6

SLG - 2 0

OPS - 2 2

Hits - 0 12

Runs - 2 12

TB - 1 1

2B - 2 1

3B - 1 3

HR - 2 0

BB - 6 1

OPS+ - 3 1

RC - 2 4

SB - 0 5

[weams]

What I realized in Orlando, both in informal settings and the three-hour meeting, is that everyone in the room spoke the same language, far removed from the complex lingo of new-age stat devotees. At one point, someone asked if it was necessary to bring WAR, a trendy new stat, into any discussion. There was a bit of mumbling, mostly silence, and it never came up again.

... and there it is. It's not a Bruce Jenkins column without some good old Luddism.

No, this was a soundtrack from the game I first covered in the early '70s, with the now-defunct Santa Monica Outlook, and as a beat writer for the Chronicle (1977 through '89, when I was given a column). Within that realm, players, managers and writers treated wins, RBIs, batting average and ERA as invaluable measuring sticks - and never really felt compelled to adjust.

Congratulations, National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. You have given a ballot for your highest honor to someone who believes that humanity perfected the search for knowledge in the 1980s. No adjustments necessary. Let the counting stats and batting average rule forever!

These categories are widely ridiculed by the modern-day faction known as "stat geeks," many of whom have decided that old-school thought is a bunch of nonsense and that they are the true geniuses of baseball evaluation.

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/12/11/5199704/hall-fame-voting-committee-marvin-miller-veterans

[weams]

http://www.hardballtimes.com/cooperstown-confidential-stories-of-bobby-grich/

And let?s use Armour?s excellent suggestion as our starting point: the career of Bobby Grich. First off, I agree with the consensus of sabermetric thought that Grich is one of the most underrated players of the last 40 years and also one of the best players