SBNATION: Why Ex-Oriole Bobby Grich will never make the HOF (+ why Jeter should not be first ballot)

[weams]

http://www.hardballtimes.com/cooperstown-confidential-stories-of-bobby-grich/

Although the National Baseball Hall of Fame has eluded him thus far, Grich did become the inaugural member of the Angels Hall of Fame in 1988. He also remains in touch with the game’s history in another critical way. The Angels offered him the opportunity to start up the team’s alumni association; Grich accepted the offer and now regularly places phone calls to ex-Angels players to inform them about reunions and possible guest appearances.

So, yes, there is more to Grich that just his gaudy statistics. By all accounts, he seems to be a genuinely good guy who overcame the roadblocks of a deep organization and career-threatening back problems. Nowadays he’s happy to talk to any and all former Angels, and perfectly willing to sign autographs for fans.

A great player to begin with, Bobby Grich has become even more likeable.

[weams]

OCRegister

In 1992, Hall of Fame voters had a ballot of names that included, for the first time, Angels second baseman Bobby Grich, along with other first timers Tom Seaver, Tony Perez, George Foster and Vida Blue, among others. Seaver was elected in his first ballot. Perez got 50 percent, enough to suggest he would be inducted eventually. (He was.) Foster and Blue both got the 5 percent needed to stay on the ballot the next year, keeping themselves in the discussion at least.

And Grich got a measly 11 votes out of 430. His batting average was too low, his milestones too few, his play too unexceptional for voters. He was off the ballot forever.

"Grich had credentials on which an argument could be made for his election to the Hall of Fame," the New York Times' Murray Chass wrote at the time. "But if a sizable number of voters was waiting to vote for him the second year, they cheated themselves and Grich because he won't appear on the next ballot."

[weams]

http://sidelinesapp.com/item/derek-jeter-a-true-captain-or-overrated/

My main gripe with his legacy is on the defensive side of the ball. There is no question he was one of the 5-10 best hitting SS of all time, but due to a combination of playing in NY + a few incredible defensive plays in October, Jeter's defense came to be woefully overrated. I admit we have many flawed defensive stats, but when every single one of them rates Jeter near the bottom of the league, it's not a conspiracy.

[weams]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/02/derek-jeter-is-the-most-fervently-overrated-shoe-in-for-the-hall-of-fame

It?s just that the things he did well in his career are the same that inspire the most effusive reactions relative to their actual value to a team.

Jeter?s offensive game is driven by singles and marked by perennially high batting averages. He hits some homers, but his relative lack of power means he has only cracked the Top 10 in AL OPS (on-base plus slugging) once in his career. Performance in that stat leads to more run scoring than batting average, but batting average is more frequently celebrated.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/656875-derek-jeter-a-legend-or-overrated

Jeter, Most overrated. Ever?

Derek Jeter is merely a very good player who benefited greatly from being drafted by the right team, at the right time, playing in the right city. Had he been drafted by any other team his legacy would be vastly different. For starters, he would not be as recognizable, nor as well-paid?both on and off the field?as he is. And he likely would not have spent the majority of his career surrounded and protected in a lineup filled with the game?s best and highest paid player. Derek Jeter?s greatness is more a matter of happenstance.

[Just Regular]

Grich advocates can also do the Edgar Martinez, he was held in the minors too long thing. I've heard in the late 60's there was one year the Orioles 40-man was so good there were no offseason changes. In 1970 and 1971, Grich, three plus years younger than the average AAA player, OPS's 1.070 over 850 PA's in Rochester.

Then in his first five full seasons 72-76 he averaged 7.0 rWAR/year.

If you romantically give him 4/WAR for those two years, then his rWAR company is Carew, Gehringer, and....Brooks Robinson. I can understand it as a Hall case people deservedly can get passionate about.

[weams]

Grich advocates can also do the Edgar Martinez, he was held in the minors too long thing. I've heard in the late 60's there was one year the Orioles 40-man was so good there were no offseason changes. In 1970 and 1971, Grich, three plus years younger than the average AAA player, OPS's 1.070 over 850 PA's in Rochester.

Then in his first five full seasons 72-76 he averaged 7.0 rWAR/year.

If you romantically give him 4/WAR for those two years, then his rWAR company is Carew, Gehringer, and....Brooks Robinson. I can understand it as a Hall case people deservedly can get passionate about.

An argument for Buck Showalter being the reason that Jeter has his career WAR by letting him play so young and win the position that he was clearly not a defensive match for is compelling as well.

[srock]

I'd to like to say this thread is one of the best threads ever who's main point is not the Orioles.

There is no better place to collect all the internet's anti-jeterism, then here in this bastion of Black and Orange.

[weams]

I'd to like to say this thread is one of the best threads ever who's main point is not the Orioles.

There is no better place to collect all the internet's anti-jeterism, then here in this bastion of Black and Orange.

Here. Here!

[tettleton14]

Postseason performance in any sport has justly/unjustly put people in the Hall of Fames in every sport. Case in point: Lynn Swann and Terry Bradshaw are in the NFL Hall of Fame, which has stricter qualifications than MLB.

Teams play to win championships, and the sum of players performances lead to those titles.

Hence Jeter deserves a significant boost for his stellar playoff performance. They were important in 5 World Series titles. Would Grich have done the same in Jeter's shoes? Maybe, but he wasn't — and what did happen > what might have happened.

[weams]

Postseason performance in any sport has justly/unjustly put people in the Hall of Fames in every sport. Case in point: Lynn Swann and Terry Bradshaw are in the NFL Hall of Fame, which has stricter qualifications than MLB.

Teams play to win championships, and the sum of players performances lead to those titles.

Hence Jeter deserves a significant boost for his stellar playoff performance. They were important in 5 World Series titles. Would Grich have done the same in Jeter's shoes? Maybe, but he wasn't — and what did happen > what might have happened.

Do Latin Grammy nominations help a case? Because Bernie Williams has four of those rings and more home runs to boot.

[tettleton14]

Bernie Williams was a very, very good player. He also didn't play shortstop and isn't top-10 all-time in hits.

[tettleton14]

Essentially, defensive WAR would be the only reason Jeter wouldn't be a first-ballot (or otherwise) Hall of Fame lock.

And considering public defensive metrics are imperfect (Fangraphs admits as much), it's not realistically outweighing Jeter's otherwise HOF shoo-in resume.

[weams]

Bernie Williams was a very, very good player. He also didn't play shortstop and isn't top-10 all-time in hits.

He did not play forty years. I think that Jeter playing shortstop hurt his teams. I think Bernie was better than Jeter. Of course WAR proves me wrong.

[DrungoHazewood]

...are in the NFL Hall of Fame, which has stricter qualifications than MLB.

Wait... what? Do they even have qualifications for the NFL HOF? I was under the impression that they just kind of make things up as they go. Heck, for most of NFL history there's whole classes of players (linemen) for which there's basically no objective information available.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think that Jeter playing shortstop hurt his teams.

Brooks had 11 seasons where he OPS'd under .700. That probably hurt his team. But the totality of his game, and Jeter's, was a net positive in a fairly big way despite their shortcomings.