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Wieters Full Time DH?

weams

By weams
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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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Sure. But his DRS (used in Fielding Bible) has been a bit above average for his career. One years defense (good or bad) does not define anyone.
Isn't there a disconnect here? Wieters is an above-average defensive catcher with a average-ish bat for a catcher, and he has been on of the more durable catchers in the game until his recent injury. An average player at an average position is worth $10M a year in free agency. But your conclusion is that he's nothing special and the O's should just move on or something. Obviously if he wants a 7/120 contract or something you walk away, but I don't know why (if he seems healthy) the Orioles wouldn't entertain a reasonable extension.
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CA-ORIOLE Hangout Grand Counsel

CA-ORIOLE

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Isn't there a disconnect here? Wieters is an above-average defensive catcher with a average-ish bat for a catcher, and he has been on of the more durable catchers in the game until his recent injury. An average player at an average position is worth $10M a year in free agency. But your conclusion is that he's nothing special and the O's should just move on or something. Obviously if he wants a 7/120 contract or something you walk away, but I don't know why (if he seems healthy) the Orioles wouldn't entertain a reasonable extension.

What's the disconnect? COC asked a speciric question about his defense and I think I answered it appropriately.. Nothing in your post conflicts with anything I have stated unless you have an issue with "very good and special" and "has been" and will be going forward. The conversation has focused on his defense. I'm not the one throwing around rhetoric like "everybody thinks he's awesome", Buck loves him and inane intangible value.... which is exactly my point about some people overrating him.. I think it is possible we may re-sign him as I think his market value could be surprisingly low. That said, my preference would be for him to have a great year and QO him. I think that's the best scenario for the team.

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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What's the disconnect? COC asked a speciric question about his defense and I think I answered it appropriately.. Nothing in your post conflicts with anything I have stated unless you have an issue with "very good and special" and "has been" and will be going forward. The conversation has focused on his defense. I'm not the one throwing around rhetoric like "everybody thinks he's awesome", Buck loves him and inane intangible value.... which is exactly my point about some people overrating him.. I think it is possible we may re-sign him as I think his market value could be surprisingly low. That said, my preference would be for him to have a great year and QO him. I think that's the best scenario for the team.

It wasn't so much a question as a point.

I give the FB guys a lot more respect then I do Dempsey.

FYI according to BR Dempsey was worth 17.2 dWAR over 24 seasons.

Wieters has been worth 5.9 over six.

So, despite also having a premium arm, Dempster wasn't better then Wieters defensively. In fact he didn't reach the 1.7 benchmark that Matt had in 2010 until his 11th season in the league. Dempsey never exceeded 2.0 dWAR in any season.

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CA-ORIOLE Hangout Grand Counsel

CA-ORIOLE

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It wasn't so much a question as a point.

I give the FB guys a lot more respect then I do Dempsey.

FYI according to BR Dempsey was worth 17.2 dWAR over 24 seasons.

Wieters has been worth 5.9 over six.

So, despite also having a premium arm, Dempster wasn't better then Wieters defensively. In fact he didn't reach the 1.7 benchmark that Matt had in 2010 until his 11th season in the league. Dempsey never exceeded 2.0 dWAR in any season.

Again, the FB/DRS has him just above average for his career and one year is just one year.

Wrt to Dempsey. Sorry. Not buying it. Even with the crude metrics we have available for Dempsey he was more than twice as valuable than Wieters has been defensively to date on a pro-rata basis. I'd argue some of the more nuanced and arbitrary things like pitch calling and framing would favor Dempsey as well. Arguably that in an era with greater emphasis on defensive catchers than now.

If you want to say the Wieters has been more valuable by virtue of taking the field more often then fine. With framing creeping in the metrics this year, age, and questions about his arm and durability/injuries, I'm not sure things will be projecting better for Wieters going forward defensively.

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El Gordo Hangout Grand Counsel

El Gordo

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Of all the positions, defensive metrics have the most trouble capturing what the catcher does. They can measure his CS%, his CERA, and maybe his framing, though I question that, and is ability to block pitches. But the main thing ML managers want from a catcher is how he handles a pitching staff. That has to do with his game calling, and his knowledge of each pitcher's strengths and weaknesses v the specific batters faced, and the psychology of his pitchers. How do you codify that? Buck is very high on Matt in those departments and in Buck I trust.

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Beef Supreme Hangout Veteran Council

Beef Supreme

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When will Matt get his first hit?

real nice weak double play grounder with men on 1st and 2nd and no outs

just Spring Training, doesn't matter, doesn't matter that he is coming off of TJ surgery, doesn't matter that he didn't hit in 2013

This is one Boras client who is going to look back and be very disappointed that he didn't take the first extension that the O's offered him.

Frobby said it on February 17 -- if Wieters isn't ready to catch, he'll start the year on the DL. Defense matters. I think everything could come up to speed defensively in two weeks...except for the arm. The Orioles are not going to handicap themselves by playing a catcher whose arm isn't strong enough to impact opponents' running games.

Meanwhile, spring training stats may ''not matter,'' but that doesn't mean what occurs doesn't matter. Wieters has looked horrible when putting bat to ball in the at-bats I have seen. I have a feeling that the TJ *does matter*, when you look at the results of his at-bats. This is troubling in that he is behind schedule defensively to start the year on the roster and he is behind schedule offensively as well. Figure him to miss all of April, at least.

It's a bitter pill to swallow, especially considering how strong he has been defensively and how positively his defense has contributed to the Orioles success (cherry-picked stats be damned). Wieters is nowhere near as valuable as a firstbaseman or DH. I hope his arm returns enough that he can reclaim his spot behind the plate by June -- and accept whatever happens offensively.

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