Pete Rose Gambled WHILE a Player, LET IN SHOELESS JOE! (Rose not to be reinstated)

[Rene88]

How in the world does the fact that Pete Rose bet on baseball have anything to do with Joe Jackson? It's like saying that 9/11 was truly evil, so Dylann Roof shouldn't go to jail.

Because Shoeless Joe is truly innocent. Pete Rose is not.

It isn't all that difficult to figure out.

[Can_of_corn]

You and I are on the same page with Pete Rose.

But I don't want Jackson in either. He took the money, just because he decided to try after accepting the money doesn't clear him of wrong doing in my book.

[Rene88]

Have you ever noticed that (with a few notable exceptions) people with numbers in their screen names tend to be idiots?

(Says the guy who confused the church shooter with an actor from Orphan Black).

This comment seems to be uncalled for. I don't appreciate being called an idiot nor would I call you one sir.

[Rene88]

But I don't want Jackson in either. He took the money, just because he decided to try on offense after accepting the money doesn't clear him of wrong doing in my book.

So you don't think intelligence played a key factor? Do you believe he understood what he was doing? I do not.

[Nigel Tufnel]

This comment seems to be uncalled for. I don't appreciate being called an idiot nor would I call you one sir.

What makes you think you weren't one of the notable exceptions?

[Can_of_corn]

So you don't think intelligence played a key factor? Do you believe he understood what he was doing? I do not.

I don't think we can make that determination.

I think it is every bit as likely that he know exactly what he was doing and double-crossed the gamblers as that he was so mentally deficient that he did not understand what the money was for.

I would rather err on the side of keeping him out. (and yes I would retroactively throw out other members if I had my druthers.)

[Rene88]

I don't think we can make that determination.

I think it is every bit as likely that he know exactly what he was doing and double-crossed the gamblers as that he was so mentally deficient that he did not understand what the money was for.

I would rather err on the side of keeping him out. (and yes I would retroactively throw out other members if I had my druthers.)

Wow-I guess I respect your fairness level but I think you need to read up more on Shoeless Joe. I just believe you are very wrong there. Best hitter in the series...and truly a HOFer.

[Tx Oriole]

I am tired of everything saying Pete should be in, Shoeless Joe and what is left of his family deserve vindication! Let in Shoeless Joe! Biggest tragedy in sports.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13114874/notebook-obtained-lines-shows-pete-rose-bet-baseball-player-1986

Yes he should be in. I believe his cleats are.

[Rene88]

o

As a Black Sox expert, the first thing that needs to be said about that entire situation is that there are many things about the entire affair that nobody will ever know for sure (including myself.)

That said, both Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver very likely played to win. In fact, Jackson set what was then a World Series record with 12 hits, batted .375 for the series, hit the only home run of the series for either team, and did not make an error. Similarly, Weaver batted .324, did not make an error, and by all accounts, players his best to win (not easy to do, knowing that 6 of your teammates are intentionally throwing games.)

Weaver never took a dime, repeatedly asked for a separate trial from his teammates to prove his innocence (of which he was denied), and appealed to the commissioners (Kenesaw Landis, Happy Chandler, and Ford Frick) every year until his death in 1956 to have himself reinstated (all of his appeal were denied.)

Jackson was given $5,000 in an envelope by his best friend and teammate (Lefty Williams), of which he tried to give to the team owner Charley Comiskey, as well as report what was going on. Comiskey had his secretary (Harry Grabiner) intercept Jackson's attempt to speak with Comiskey about the fix, and to give the $5,000 to him as evidence of what was happening. At that point, Jackson decided that he simply wasn't going to play in the series because of the fix that he knew that his teammates were complicit in. His manager (Kid Gleason) screamed at Jackson that he would play ....... Gleason's statement was not a prediction or a request, it was a threat. The uneducated, illiterate Jackson buckled under the pressure of his manager and owner, and played all 8 games of the series to the best of his ability, but like Buck Weaver, was not comfortable in doing so.

As stated before, there are still many aspects of the entire affair that people do not know, and will never find out. However, based on the numerous books, articles, and films that I have read and seen, and the people that I have spoken with (I actually called a man named Gardner Stern on the telephone just before he died in 1996 who lived in Chicago his entire life, and who was 16 years-old at the time of the fix, and spoke extensively with him about it), Jackson and Weaver both played to win, in spite of the pressure of the situation that was on them. This man ......

A. Saw the first game ever at THE ORIGINAL Comiskey Park in 1910.

B. Had his heart broken when it was found out that his beloved White Sox had thrown the 1919 World Series (he in fact went to one of those World Series games against the Reds.) He was actually at 2 of these games in Chicago.

As I said earlier, his name was Gardner Stern. He was born in 1904, was a life-long White Sox fan, and was a guest in Ken Burns' baseball documentary.

I simply called information for Chicago, Illinois (in 1996), asked for his phone number, and he was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about the entire Black Sox scandal, plus his lifelong fandom of the White Sox.

Great stuff OFFNY. Thank you for posting!!!

[OFFNY]

o

 

As a Black Sox expert, the first thing that needs to be said about that entire situation is that there are many things about the entire affair that nobody will ever know for sure (including myself.)

That said, both Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver very likely played to win. In fact, Jackson set what was then a World Series record with 12 hits, batted .375 for the series, hit the only home run of the series for either team, and did not make an error on defense. Similarly, Weaver batted .324, did not make an error on defense, and by all accounts played his best to win (not easy to do, knowing that 6 of your teammates are intentionally throwing games.)

Weaver never took a dime, repeatedly asked for a separate trial from his teammates to prove his innocence (of which he was denied), and appealed to the MLB commissioners (Kenesaw Landis, Happy Chandler, and Ford Frick) every year until his death in 1956 to have himself reinstated (all of his appeal were denied.)

Jackson was given $5,000 in an envelope by his best friend and teammate (Lefty Williams), of which he tried to give to the team owner Charley Comiskey, as well as report what was going on. Comiskey had his secretary (Harry Grabiner) intercept Jackson's attempt to speak with Comiskey about the fix, and to give the $5,000 to him as evidence of what was happening. At that point, Jackson decided that he simply wasn't going to play in the series because of the fix that he knew that his teammates were complicit in. His manager (Kid Gleason) screamed at Jackson that he would play ....... Gleason's statement was not a prediction or a request, it was a threat. The uneducated, illiterate Jackson buckled under the pressure of his manager and owner, and played all 8 games of the series to the best of his ability, but like Buck Weaver, was not comfortable in doing so.

As stated before, there are still many aspects of the entire affair that people do not know, and will never find out. However, based on the numerous books, articles, and films that I have read and seen, and the people that I have spoken with (I actually called a man named Gardner Stern on the telephone just before he died in 1996 who lived in Chicago his entire life, and who was 15 years-old at the time of the fix, and spoke extensively with him about it), Jackson and Weaver both played to win, in spite of the pressure of the situation that was on them. This man ......

 

A) )Saw the first game ever at THE ORIGINAL Comiskey Park in 1910, when he was 5 and-a-half years old.

B) )Had his heart broken when it was found out that his beloved White Sox had thrown the 1919 World Series (he in fact went to one of those World Series games against the Reds.) 

 

As I said earlier, his name was Gardner Stern. He was born in 1904, was a life-long White Sox fan, and was a guest in Ken Burns' baseball documentary.

I simply called information for Chicago, Illinois (in 1996), asked for his phone number, and he was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about the entire Black Sox scandal, plus his lifelong fandom of the White Sox.

 

o

[Can_of_corn]

If he took the money to throw the series then didn't throw the series then, to me, he is no better then his teammates who were at least honest enough to stay bought.

[OFFNY]

Great stuff OFFNY. Thank you for posting!!!

You're welcome.

The White have been my 2nd favorite team since 1989 (because of the entire scandal and mystery surrounding it), and they always will be.

Them winning the World Series for the first time in 88 years in 2005 was the 2nd-most poignant experience that I have ever had a baseball fan.

The 1st (most poignant) was when I was a 6 year-old boy in October of 1971, when the Orioles lost Game Seven of the World Series. After the final out (which I still remember to be a groundout), I went outside in the swing-set in our backyard here in Brewster, put my face and my hands, and pouted ...... and have bleeding orange and black ever since.

[TonySoprano]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pete Rose "assured" me many times in interview that he NEVER bet on baseball.I like Pete.Lots do. But no HOF AT ALL. <a href="http://t.co/c7UaD3L45i">pic.twitter.com/c7UaD3L45i</a></p>— Roy Firestone (@RoyFirestone) <a href="

">June 22, 2015</a></blockquote>

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[NashLumber]

Actually, I think they should both be in a new section for discredited players. Put all the PED guys there, too. Would simplify a lot of things.

While I am in the "No HOF for Pete Rose" camp, I do kind of find your idea interesting. Maybe it can be like a Cooperstown wing of Disneyland and call it "Neverland", as in "you'll *never* be enshrined in the Hall, but here's your little museum for your tainted accomplishments".

[Superbee83]

If he took the money to throw the series then didn't throw the series then, to me, he is no better then his teammates who were at least honest enough to stay bought.

I agree.

I'm sure that he was in a tough spot, but once he took the money there was no turning back.

He was a great player, but I think that there are too many questions that can never be answered about the scandal.

I do not think that he should be in the HOF because of his connection to the scandal.