Pete Rose Gambled WHILE a Player, LET IN SHOELESS JOE! (Rose not to be reinstated)

[Moose Milligan]

I've done a 180 on the PED guys and Rose. Used to be firmly against them, now I'm for them. Like it or not, these guys are part of the history of the game. MLB has it's dark moments, but it's funny that the MLB gets to clean up and sweep things under the rug when they see fit. Keep a whole race of people from playing the game for over 75 years? We'll bend over backwards and try to make things right with grand overtures and apologizing at every given chance (and they're right for doing so but still doesn't change the fact that black players never got a fair shot for decades). What's worse? What Rose and Jackson (I think he's innocent, too) did or what owners did for several years? What's worse, what Rose and Jackson did or the owners colluding together in the mid 80's to not sign FA's? How can anyone think that baseball owners agreeing together to not improve their teams was good for baseball and how does that NOT get mentioned at all anymore? How can anyone say that teams refusing to take advantage of free agents and refusing to make their clubs better isn't the same as throwing games?

When MLB shoots itself in the foot, it does a great job of kissing and making up and acting like everything is ok. It has no problem hanging it's players out to dry, players that sold countless tickets and made countless dollars for people over the years. The MLB definitely has its warts from over the years, it just does a masterful job of picking and choosing what gets apologized, what gets overlooked and what gets penalized. What Rose and Jackson did happened, it's in the books. It's part of the games history and, IMO, it's not nearly as ugly as a lot of the other transgressions in baseballs past

[OFFNY]

OFFNY said:

o

 

As a Black Sox expert, the first thing that needs to be said about that entire situation is that there are many things about the entire affair that nobody will ever know for sure (including myself.)

That said, both Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver very likely played to win. In fact, Jackson set what was then a World Series record with 12 hits, batted .375 for the series, hit the only home run of the series for either team, and did not make an error on defense. Similarly, Weaver batted .324, did not make an error on defense, and by all accounts played his best to win (not easy to do, knowing that 6 of your teammates are intentionally throwing games.)

Weaver never took a dime, repeatedly asked for a separate trial from his teammates to prove his innocence (of which he was denied), and appealed to the MLB commissioners (Kenesaw Landis, Happy Chandler, and Ford Frick) every year until his death in 1956 to have himself reinstated (all of his appeal were denied.)

Jackson was given $5,000 in an envelope by his best friend and teammate (Lefty Williams), of which he tried to give to the team owner Charley Comiskey, as well as report what was going on. Comiskey had his secretary (Harry Grabiner) intercept Jackson's attempt to speak with Comiskey about the fix, and to give the $5,000 to him as evidence of what was happening. At that point, Jackson decided that he simply wasn't going to play in the series because of the fix that he knew that his teammates were complicit in.His manager (Kid Gleason) screamed at Jackson that he would play ....... Gleason's statement was not a prediction or a request, it was a threat. The uneducated, illiterate Jackson buckled under the pressure of his manager and owner, and played all 8 games of the series to the best of his ability, but like Buck Weaver, was not comfortable in doing so.

As stated before, there are still many aspects of the entire affair that people do not know, and will never find out. However, based on the numerous books, articles, and films that I have read and seen, and the people that I have spoken with (I actually called a man named Gardner Stern on the telephone just before he died in 1996 who lived in Chicago his entire life, and who was 15 years-old at the time of the fix, and spoke extensively with him about it), Jackson and Weaver both played to win, in spite of the pressure of the situation that was on them. This man ......

o

A. Saw the first game ever at THE ORIGINAL Comiskey Park in 1910.

B. Had his heart broken when it was found out that his beloved White Sox had thrown the 1919 World Series (he in fact went to one of those World Series games against the Reds.) He was actually at 2 of these games in Chicago.

 

As I said earlier, his name was Gardner Stern. He was born in 1904, was a life-long White Sox fan, and was a guest in Ken Burns' baseball documentary.

I simply called information for Chicago, Illinois (in 1996), asked for his phone number, and he was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about the entire Black Sox scandal, plus his lifelong fandom of the White Sox.

 

o

Can_of_corn said:

 

If he took the money to throw the series, then didn't throw the series, then to me, he is no better then his teammates who were at least honest enough to stay bought.

 

o

 

Jackson did not take money to throw the series. In fact, he wanted nothing to do with the fix when it was proposed to him. He was given $5,000 in an envelope from his friend and teammate (Lefty Williams) after the series was over, money that he never asked for, and that he did not want. He even tried to give the money to the team owner (Charlie Comiskey) and report the entire scandal to him, but as I stated in my previous post, he was intercepted by Harry Grabiner who told Jackson that Comiskey had nothing to say to him (even though he had offered a $10,000 reward for anyone giving him any information on the fix.) Comiskey, in fact, was complicit in the cover-up of the fix after the fact ........ he played his cards/made his every move to minimize any damage done to himself, and not to find out what actually happened and/or to protect the integrity of the game. Comiskey had no intention of not allowing the 8 players to resume their careers with the White Sox (even though he knew that at least 5 of them were guilty of throwing games in the series) before they were banned by commissioner Landis only one day after they were found not guilty in a trial that was an even bigger farce and hoax than was the series itself. Those 8 players were the nucleus of the team, and Comiskey paid for their defense team in court ........ knowing full well that at least 5 of those 8 players (it turned out to be 6) were guilty of throwing several of the games.

Jackson, in all likelihood, was guilty of lacking the character and the spine to stand up to his manager and of not refusing to play in the series which he knew was crooked, like he initially tried to do before he (Gleason) coerced him into it. But as far as "double-crossing the gamblers" is concerned, neither Jackson nor Weaver had a hand in that. Their names were used by the other 6 players (specifically Chick Gandil and Swede Risberg) beforehand in an effort to convince the gamblers (Sport Sullivan, Sleepy Bill Burns, Billy Maharg, and Abe Attell) that the team had enough players to secure a loss by the White Sox. For Jackson and Weaver, it was similar to the Connie Hawkins case 4 decades later, except it did not have an eventual happy ending for them (as it did for Hawkins, who was eventually cleared of any wrongdoing, successfully sued the NBA for its initial ban of him, and eventually played long in enough in both the ABA and the NBA to become a Hall-of-Famer.)

The other 6 players besides Weaver and Jackson were unquestionably (and admittedly) guilty of taking money to throw games, but even that entire ordeal is much more complex that can be assumed, but that is a whole other story. In addition to being complicit in covering up the fix after the fact (which I briefly touched on earlier in this post), Charlie Comiskey also helped set the atmosphere for what happened with his cheapness, disingenuousness, and emotionally sadistic treatment of almost all of his players, save for the University of Columbia educated Eddie Collins.

Also, Jackson and Weaver's teammates DID NOT stay bought, as you presumed. The players were in fact double-crossed by the gamblers, particularly by Abe Attell who falsely told them that he was being funded by Arnold Rothstein (he was not), and guaranteed the players a total of $100,000 for the players (he in fact wound up giving the players only $10,000 out of the $100,000 that he had promised them.)

When the players had not even received half of the money that was promised them 5 games into the series, the White Sox were down 4 games to 1. They not only won the next game, but they also won Game Seven, with Eddie Cicotte (who was in on the fix, and had intentionally lost the previous 2 games that he had started) pitching a gem, and shutting down the Reds. Lefty Williams (also a conspirator in the fix) was going to follow suit and pitch to win Game Eight, which would have forced a 9th and deciding game of the series, but one of Rothstein's henchmen threatened Williams that his wife would be killed if he did not lose Game Eight in the very first inning (Williams was shelled for 4 runs in only 1/3 of an inning, sealing the White Sox' fate for the series.)

The only 2 players who "stayed bought" from the beginning of the series until the end were Chick Gandil and Swede Risberg.

 

o

[crissfan172]

Have you ever noticed that (with a few notable exceptions) people with numbers in their screen names tend to be idiots?

(Says the guy who confused the church shooter with an actor from Orphan Black).

Hurtful. [emoji28]

[24fps]

Have you ever noticed that (with a few notable exceptions) people with numbers in their screen names tend to be idiots?

(Says the guy who confused the church shooter with an actor from Orphan Black).

What about people with numbers in their avatars?

[OFFNY]

OFFNY said:

o

 

As a Black Sox expert, the first thing that needs to be said about that entire situation is that there are many things about the entire affair that nobody will ever know for sure (including myself.)

That said, both Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver very likely played to win. In fact, Jackson set what was then a World Series record with 12 hits, batted .375 for the series, hit the only home run of the series for either team, and did not make an error. Similarly, Weaver batted .324, did not make an error, and by all accounts, players his best to win (not easy to do, knowing that 6 of your teammates are intentionally throwing games.)

Weaver never took a dime, repeatedly asked for a separate trial from his teammates to prove his innocence (of which he was denied), and appealed to the commissioners (Kenesaw Landis, Happy Chandler, and Ford Frick) every year until his death in 1956 to have himself reinstated (all of his appeal were denied.)

Jackson was given $5,000 in an envelope by his best friend and teammate (Lefty Williams), of which he tried to give to the team owner Charley Comiskey, as well as report what was going on. Comiskey had his secretary (Harry Grabiner) intercept Jackson's attempt to speak with Comiskey about the fix, and to give the $5,000 to him as evidence of what was happening. At that point, Jackson decided that he simply wasn't going to play in the series because of the fix that he knew that his teammates were complicit in. His manager (Kid Gleason) screamed at Jackson that he would play ....... Gleason's statement was not a prediction or a request, it was a threat. The uneducated, illiterate Jackson buckled under the pressure of his manager and owner, and played all 8 games of the series to the best of his ability, but like Buck Weaver, was not comfortable in doing so.

As stated before, there are still many aspects of the entire affair that people do not know, and will never find out. However, based on the numerous books, articles, and films that I have read and seen, and the people that I have spoken with (I actually called a man named Gardner Stern on the telephone just before he died in 1996 who lived in Chicago his entire life, and who was 16 years-old at the time of the fix, and spoke extensively with him about it), Jackson and Weaver both played to win, in spite of the pressure of the situation that was on them. This man ........

 

A. ) Saw the first game ever at THE ORIGINAL Comiskey Park in 1910.

B. ) Had his heart broken when it was found out that his beloved White Sox had thrown the 1919 World Series (he in fact went to one of those World Series games against the Reds.) He was actually at 2 of these games in Chicago.

 

As I said earlier, his name was Gardner Stern. He was born in 1904, was a life-long White Sox fan, and was a guest in Ken Burns' baseball documentary.

I simply called information for Chicago, Illinois (in 1996), asked for his phone number, and he was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about the entire Black Sox scandal, plus his lifelong fandom of the White Sox.

 

o

Can_of_corn said:

 

If he took the money to throw the series then didn't throw the series, then to me he is no better then his teammates who were at least honest enough to stay bought.

 

OFFNY said:

o

 

Jackson did not take money to throw the series. In fact, he wanted nothing to do with the fix when it was proposed to him. He was given $5,000 in an envelope from his friend and teammate (Lefty Williams) after the series was over, money that he never asked for, and that he did not want. He even tried to give the money to the team owner (Charlie Comiskey) and report the entire scandal to him, but as I stated in my previous post, he was intercepted by Harry Grabiner who told Jackson that Comiskey had nothing to say to him (even though he had offered a $10,000 reward for anyone giving him any information on the fix.) Comiskey, in fact, was complicit in the cover-up of the fix after the fact ........ he played his cards/made his every move to minimize any damage done to himself, and not to find out what actually happened and/or to protect the integrity of the game. Comiskey had no intention of not allowing the 8 players to resume their careers with the White Sox (even though he knew that at least 5 of them were guilty of throwing games in the series) before they were banned by commissioner Landis only one day after they were found not guilty in a trial that was an even bigger farce and hoax than was the series itself. Those 8 players were the nucleus of the team, and Comiskey paid for their defense team in court ........ knowing full well that at least 5 of those 8 players (it turned out to be 6) were guilty of throwing several of the games.

Jackson, in all likelihood, was guilty of lacking the character and the spine to stand up to his manager and of not refusing to play in the series which he knew was crooked, like he initially tried to do before he (Gleason) coerced him into it. But as far as "double-crossing the gamblers" is concerned, neither Jackson nor Weaver had a hand in that. Their names were used by the other 6 players (specifically Chick Gandil and Swede Risberg) beforehand in an effort to convince the gamblers (Sport Sullivan, Sleepy Bill Burns, Billy Maharg, and Abe Attell) that the team had enough players to secure a loss by the White Sox. For Jackson and Weaver, it was similar to the Connie Hawkins case 4 decades later, except it did not have an eventual happy ending for them (as it did for Hawkins, who was eventually cleared of any wrongdoing, successfully sued the NBA for its initial ban of him, and eventually played long in enough in both the ABA and the NBA to become a Hall-of-Famer.)

The other 6 players besides Weaver and Jackson were unquestionably (and admittedly) guilty of taking money to throw games, but even that entire ordeal is much more complex that can be assumed, but that is a whole other story. In addition to being complicit in covering up the fix after the fact (which I briefly touched on earlier in this post), Charlie Comiskey also helped set the atmosphere for what happened with his cheapness, disingenuousness, and emotionally sadistic treatment of almost all of his players, save for the University of Columbia educated Eddie Collins.

Also, Jackson and Weaver's teammates DID NOT stay bought, as you presumed. The players were in fact double-crossed by the gamblers, particularly by Abe Attell who falsely told them that he was being funded by Arnold Rothstein (he was not), and guaranteed the players a total of $100,000 for the players (he in fact wound up giving the players only $10,000 out of the $100,000 that he had promised them.)

When the players had not even received half of the money that was promised them 5 games into the series, the White Sox were down 4 games to 1. They not only won the next game, but they also won Game Seven, with Eddie Cicotte (who was in on the fix, and had intentionally lost the previous 2 games that he had started) pitching a gem, and shutting down the Reds. Lefty Williams (also a conspirator in the fix) was going to follow suit and pitch to win Game Eight, which would have forced a 9th and deciding game of the series, but one of Rothstein's henchmen threatened Williams that his wife would be killed if he did not lose Game Eight in the very first inning (Williams was shelled for 4 runs in only 1/3 of an inning, sealing the White Sox' fate for the series.)

The only 2 players who "stayed bought" from the beginning of the series until the end were Chick Gandil and Swede Risberg.

 

o

o

 

And now, Jackson's great-great-great nephew (also named Joe Jackson) is a star for the Advanced-A High Desert Mavericks.

He is currently batting .301 with a .372 OBP, 10 HR's, 72 RBI's, and 29 doubles in only 99 games so far this season.

 

Joe Jackson: Making A Name For Himself

(By Steven A. Krawczyk)

http://www.27outsbaseball.com/al-west/joe-jackson-making-a-name-for-himself/

 

o

[O's84]

And now, Jackson's great-great-great nephew (also named Joe Jackson) is a star for the Advanced-A High Desert Mavericks.

He is currently batting .301 with a .372 OBP, 10 HR's, 72 RBI's, and 29 doubles in only 99 games so far this season.

Joe Jackson: Making A Name For Himself

(By Steven A. Krawczyk)

http://www.27outsbaseball.com/al-west/joe-jackson-making-a-name-for-himself/

This so awesome!!! If he can make the majors I wonder if there might become a movement to let Shoeless Joe Jackson in the HOF. Either way i'm sure Shoeless Joe is looking down on him proudly.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to OFFNY again.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Announcement supposedly coming tomorrow morning.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/sports/2015/08/31/shoeless-joe-jackson-reconsidered-mlb-baseball-hall-fame/71478388/

[Moose Milligan]

Announcement supposedly coming tomorrow morning.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/sports/2015/08/31/shoeless-joe-jackson-reconsidered-mlb-baseball-hall-fame/71478388/

If this is to be believed, it doesn't look like he's being reinstated: http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2015/09/01/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-rejects-reinstatement-of-shoeless-joe-jackson/3/

[Aglets]

Yea looks like no pardon for Shoeless Joe still.

[Can_of_corn]

Yea looks like no pardon for Shoeless Joe still.

I don't understand why they just couldn't say that yesterday.

[Moose Milligan]

And the archaic ruling for the archaic practice still lives on.

[TonySoprano]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sources: MLB informs Pete Rose he will not be reinstated.</p>— T.J. Quinn (@TJQuinnESPN) <a href="

">December 14, 2015</a></blockquote>

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Skeletor]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sources: MLB informs Pete Rose he will not be reinstated.</p>? T.J. Quinn (@TJQuinnESPN) <a href="

">December 14, 2015</a></blockquote>

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Apparently, Rose is gambling on baseball to this day.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

[TonySoprano]

Apparently, Rose is gambling on baseball to this day.

Sent from my 0PJA2 using Tapatalk

[weams]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sources: MLB informs Pete Rose he will not be reinstated.</p>— T.J. Quinn (@TJQuinnESPN) <a href="

">December 14, 2015</a></blockquote>

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2015/12/14/rob-manfred-blasts-rose-to-the-stone-age-in-his-decision-declining-reinstatement/