At What Point, Do You Hold DD Accountable, If Any?

[El Gordo]

Seriously your calling the fact that I KNEW that the collection of bum's Duquette replaced Cruz and Markakis with weren't enough, HINDSIGHT?

IMO, even you knew it was a serious risk and a team on the cusp of a world series appearance, doesn't take such risks.

There is no excuse for Duquette's poor 2015 off-season.

Again take a look at the FA OF options that year and tell me who you think was a better choice than the ones we made. Aoki? Rasmus? It was a crap shoot. And while Cruz would have been nice he is not an OF he is a DH.

[twinedenter]

Also, you really believe that pretty much any GM with a halfway decent MLB track record and pulse would have taken over the 2011 Orioles and gotten more than two playoff appearances and better than the most wins in the AL East over that period? Maybe someone less incompetent would have managed 3-4 division titles and built a good farm system on the foundation of 14 straight losing seasons?

I believe that 80% of the work was already done for him. He inherited the ENTIRE CORE of everyday players, including Machado.

Duquette isn't an average GM, in my opinion. If he was that good, in the carnival world that is baseball exec's, he wouldn't have been out of the game for 9 years.

Built a good farm system? I won't even validate that silly comment with a response.

[Crazysilver03]

I believe that 80% of the work was already done for him. He inherited the ENTIRE CORE of everyday players, including Machado.

Duquette isn't an average GM, in my opinion. If he was that good, in the carnival world that is baseball exec's, he wouldn't have been out of the game for 9 years.

Built a good farm system? I won't even validate that silly comment with a response.

Guess you missed the sarcasm. And that that comment wasn't even directed at DD.

[twinedenter]

It's not my job to find players it's his. It's HIS responsibility. Apparently he was either too busy drinking Labatt's Blue or unable to find one. Either choice, makes him a poor GM IMO.

It wasn't a crap shoot. Aoki had a 3 year track record of hitting for average and getting on-base. Rasmus, who is a bum, had a track record of low average, good pop. He just so happen to hit 25 homers for Houston. With either of these guys, we would have had a far better chance to squeek into the playoffs.

Your making an excuse for someone to have done their job poorly. That's rich. Will you hire me?

[twinedenter]

Guess you missed the sarcasm. And that that comment wasn't even directed at DD.

Glad your answering for Drungo now.

[El Gordo]

It's not my job to find players it's his. It's HIS responsibility. Apparently he was either too busy drinking Labatt's Blue or unable to find one. Either choice, makes him a poor GM IMO.

It wasn't a crap shoot. Aoki had a 3 year track record of hitting for average and getting on-base. Rasmus, who is a bum, had a track record of low average, good pop. He just so happen to hit 25 homers for Houston. With either of these guys, we would have had a far better chance to squeek into the playoffs.

Your making an excuse for someone to have done their job poorly. That's rich. Will you hire me?

I would prefer to hire someone who knew what they were talking about. Aoki and Rasmus is pure hind sight, and they were the best of the bunch. You are basically saying it not your job to know what you are talking about, it's DD job to pull rabbits out of hats. :rolleyestf:

[Aristotelian]

It's not my job to find players it's his. It's HIS responsibility. Apparently he was either too busy drinking Labatt's Blue or unable to find one. Either choice, makes him a poor GM IMO.

It wasn't a crap shoot. Aoki had a 3 year track record of hitting for average and getting on-base. Rasmus, who is a bum, had a track record of low average, good pop. He just so happen to hit 25 homers for Houston. With either of these guys, we would have had a far better chance to squeek into the playoffs.

Your making an excuse for someone to have done their job poorly. That's rich. Will you hire me?

DD brought in Pearce in 2014 and nobody complained. Some people (myself included) wanted Aoki over De Aza but the difference between the two is pretty small. Pearce's regression was by far the bigger factor and its hard to fault DD for going with Pearce for another year.

[Tony-OH]

What do you mean by "hold DD accountable?" If you are asking whether it is fair to criticize him for the things he's done that you disagree with, the answer is yes. If you are asking if he has held the job long enough, and has had sufficient room for decision making, that it would be fair to fire him if you were very dissatisfied with his performance, I think the answer is yes again. But, if you are asking if I am sufficiently dissatisfied that I would fire him if I could, the answer is clearly no.

I'm not thrilled with everything Duquette has done. I disagreed with some of the trades he made at the time they were made (Rodriguez for Miller, Davies for Parra) and some of his other trades look bad in hindsight (Arrieta and Strop for Feldman and Clevenger, Tarpley and Brault for Snider). He gambled last winter that he could replace two consistent, regular outfielders with an array of part-time players and he lost that gamble. It looks like he may be doubling down on that outfield gamble and making a similar gamble on replacing Chen. I'm not a fan of the offer we made to Davis and the fact that we aren't aggressively pursuing the better alternatives, though that may well be more PA than DD.

At the same time, you have to give credit where credit is due. He signed Chen to a great deal. He signed Jones to an extension that has turned out to be extremely team-friendly. He found Miguel Gonzalez in Mexico and has gotten great value there. He brought McLouth in, got value from him, and knew when to quit while he was ahead there. He brought in Pearce. He got a great deal on Cruz. Bottom line, the team is 355-293 (.548) in his four years here, he has been to the playoffs twice with one division title, and he hasn't had a losing record. All that has been accomplished even though three of the other four teams in our division operate with higher payrolls than we have, something that DD doesn't control.

So, I don't think Duquette is anywhere close to performing at a level where it would be wise to fire him and bring in someone else. I haven't forgotten that our GM position has been something of a merry-go-round for the entire time Peter Angelos has owned the Orioles, and that the last time the job was open, qualified candidates were turning down the job. I haven't forgotten that Angelos sometimes poses limits on baseball decisions such that the GM is constrained in his choices. And I'm not forgetting that DD does have budget constraints that sometimes require him to forego a more expensive option that has more certainty of good performance, and take some calculated risks.

At the same time, I have my eye on the situation. If 2016 goes well, then DD deserves to keep his job. If it doesn't go so well, then how DD reacts will decide whether he deserves to keep his job. Does he hold on to all his vets and try to tinker enough to get a better result the next time, or does he start making some moves to reposition the team for the longer term?

Other than the Rodriguez for Miller trade, I agree with everything you wrote here although of course I would have added his Wieters gamble backfired on him. I'd also like to add that he can not control the fact that Davis/Boros are holding us hostage or the fact that Angelos reportedly won't let him use the Davis money on other players like Upton.

He using the international market again this offseason to try and find a cheaper corner outfield fit with Kim and he's added to the depth of the organization in an attempt to find the next diamond in the rough and I for one liked the Trumbo trade as it gave him a power option at 1B if Davis goes elsewhere.

I think Duquette has figured out how to keep the team competitive and although I think he didn't know when to fold them last year, overall I still think he's done a good job.

[wildcard]

When Angelos bought the O's as well as when Buck and Dan were hired they accepted that they would be working in a unfair environment. An environment where the Yankees and Red Sox would outspend them annually but 50 to 100m+ per year. People can say that does not guarantee the big spending teams success but we know it allows them to re-load every year and have a shot at contending.

Teams like the O's with limited resources must do things to allow them to compete in the market. Different teams do different things. Tampa was terrible for years and accumulated high draft picks(like what the Cubs and Royals did). They also concentrated on pitching. Those two things allow them to compete in an unfair environment for years. However, now that talent pool is decreasing and so is their chances of winning.

The Blue Jay were mediocre for years but made some very good trades and used many of their high draft picks to go big in trade at the July deadline. That allowed they to win the East last year. But David Price is gone and their pitching is so-so. It will be interesting to see if they can compete this year.

The O's rise over the past four years has been a combination of several things. Peter increasing payroll by about 10m per year. Buck's use of a team oriented philosophy, utilizing of the pen, the minor league shuttle and giving players chances that they might not have otherwise had.

Dan first concentrated on upgrading the starting pitching with Chen, Gonzalez and then Norris and Jimenez. He promoted from the minors, something much earlier than expected. His free agent additions have been opportunistic for the most part. He only signed players early in the offseason if they were O's players. Other than that he waits for bargains.

Considering that the MLB competitive environment is unfair at its heart, the threesome of Dan, Buck and Peter have been very successful over the last four years. This offseason brings a challenge as big as they have faced. And it may not be big names they sign that helps them continue to succeed. It may be the system they have built, the players they offer chances, the current players that improve and the money that Petter adds. Just have to wait and see if their string of successes continue.

Fortunately until the O's sink in the won loss column there in no reason to call for heads to roll.

[helloharv]

Name a GM that was ever able to get PA to change his mind. Not even Pat Gillick.

Flanny got Peter to open his check book when he signed 3 major free agents in one off season.

Tejada/Raffy/Lopez

[hoosiers]

I've always wondered about that when I hear/have heard fans make statements such as, "Losing is not acceptable for this team/franchise. We fans demand a winner here!"

Well, if losing is not acceptable HERE, then what team/franchise's fans SHOULD accept losing?

Losing is acceptable (especially in MLB where there is a credible and important minor league system to produce future pro players) as long as the front office is building toward a future competitiveness. That's what our prior GM did. He fielded teams that he knew would lose, traded away good MLB players for prospects while weakening the major league team and showing no ego that the major league winning % was important to him.

I fully acknowledge that DD has maintained nearly a .550 winning percentage in his time here and would not deny that he has made numerous good moves to supplement the talent base to get the Os into the playoffs twice in his four years. But he inherited a pretty strong talent base with numerous players capable of 2-4+ WAR years and multiple all-star appearances. But much of our success of these four years has been brought about by taking a sledgehammer to our future competitiveness by trading away quality minor league pieces including multiple top 100 prospects and forfeiting and trading away multiple first round, supplemental and second round draft picks and international slots. To boot, none of the MLB players acquired in those trades are with the Orioles today.

In fact, I would argue, and have posted this frequently, that the Os would have had the same if not more success and would have a significantly better MLB future AND farm system if DD had never made ANY trades and simply fielded a team with what he inherited plus some free agents and kept our picks. I think that is pretty damning and it really doesn't require anyone to be distracted by posters waxing philosophic about 14 straight losing seasons. Those losing seasons should not change the context with which the results of our current GM should be judged. Even several years after AM left, with just the drafting of Gausman, we would have a quality, cheap opening day 2016 rotation of Jake, Tillman, Gausman, EdRod and Davies and a bullpen anchored by O'Day and Britton.

The current state of our major league team is mediocre and the path to competitiveness at the MLB level again would have to involve dealing excessive key draft picks, signing expensive FAs and trading quality prospects. The minor league system is considered worse than mediocre by most analysts who I believe will place it in the bottom quartile.

The offseason is not over and I will consider it something just short of a miracle if we still have our projected 2016 draft picks - which is my only goal for the offseason. Most other courses would involve our GM making more risky moves that take away more of our future. If DD commits to a proper rebuild for a season or two, great, otherwise the days when our next GM does make such a commitment can't get here soon enough.

[El Gordo]

DD has done the best job of any GM in my memory, under PA, wearing the PA straight jacket. I can't criticize any of them given that handicap. It would be interesting to see what DD would do were he not wearing that jacket.

[Crazysilver03]

DD brought in Pearce in 2014 and nobody complained. Some people (myself included) wanted Aoki over De Aza but the difference between the two is pretty small. Pearce's regression was by far the bigger factor and its hard to fault DD for going with Pearce for another year.

Pearce was brought in in 2012

[Crazysilver03]

Glad your answering for Drungo now.

Anyone with worthwhile reading comprhension could see that you missed the point.

[Redskins Rick]

Anyone with worthwhile reading comprhension could see that you missed the point.

Well, that leaves out 2/3s of OH.

:wedge: