Britton explains why Arrieta flourished in Chicago

[Sanfran327]

At the VERY least, if there's some sort of organizational philosophy about not throwing cutters, then wouldn't you think that they should look at pitchers that don't COMPLETELY FREAKING RELY ON THEM FOR SUCCESS?!

[Can_of_corn]

At the VERY least, if there's some sort of organizational philosophy about not throwing cutters, then wouldn't you think that they should look at pitchers that don't COMPLETELY FREAKING RELY ON THEM FOR SUCCESS?!

The brain trust that drafted Jake didn't have concerns about cutter use.

Not that I am aware of at any rate.

[Going Underground]

Rigorously structured flexibility. A consistent top-to-bottom organizational philosophy on pitching that relies on simple, straightforward guidance to do whatever works for you. A New Oriole Way.

I think the Orioles tried this over 10 years ago.

The Rodgers regime had plenty of positives. Shortly after taking the job in January of 2003, Rodgers implemented a total overhaul of the Orioles' farm system, installing new managers and coaches at every level. Rodgers and his staff emphasized professionalism and discipline, qualities that had been lacking prior to his arrival. Players responded surprisingly well to Rodgers's strict rules, which defined the parameters of a player's sartorial appearance and enforced nightly curfews. A more uniform code of instruction and training also began to pervade the system from the top down. The importance of on-base percentage, among other things, was highlighted to all hitters. Young pitchers received more careful treatment under the Rodgers administration, particularly at the lower levels.

http://www.oobleck.com/orioles/archives/2004/10/farm_director_reaches_the_end.html

[DrungoHazewood]

One way to achieve that is to change from a rule-oriented system to a goal-oriented system. You identify what results you want a person to demonstrate and judge success or failure by whether those results are demonstrated. That does not say that a person shouldn't get advice and assistance in achieving the stated goals, but the result should be the bottom line, not following a set of rules. (Obviously not talking about laws, morals, etc. here, but job performance.)

My poorly worded point was really just observing the natural conflict between structure and flexibility. Everyone wants an overarching organizational philosophy, but they also want to throw that out the window when it doesn't work.

[Sessh]

How would you avoid another Jake scenario?

Avoid drafting headstrong pitchers?

Acquiescing when pitchers refuse to accept changes?

Having a second set of rules where more talented pitchers get preferential treatment?

Sorry, but why should pitchers blindly accept changes? These are adults, not kids who are balls of clay to be molded from the ground up and rob them of their individuality. They aren't robots. By the time pitchers get to

that level, they already have a really good idea of what works for them mechanically, what pitches work for them and what approaches work for them. If any of those aren't working, then ok, but don't fix what isn't broken.

Obviously, Jake was not given any freedom to decide what worked best for him and instead had pitching coaches cram what they] decided is best for him down his throat and it didn't work. Jake got breathing

room, freedom to do what was comfortable for him and real coaching in Chicago and the rest is history. Pitching coaches are supposed to guide pitchers and help them to find what works best for them not control and

micromanage them. I believe Erik Bedard also had similar issues with Leo Mazzone who was also a control freak.

[Sessh]

DD on the cutter

“The philosophy of the organization is to encourage pitchers to develop a good delivery, command of their fastball, an off-speed pitch and a good breaking ball,” Duquette said. “The first breaking ball that we work with our young pitchers on is a curveball. So that is basically the level of progression of our instruction and our organization philosophy.

“First of all, the cut fastball, we don’t like it as a pitch, OK? And we don’t like it for young pitchers because it takes away from the development of their curveball, which is a better pitch long-term and also, the velocity of their fastball. So we encourage development of an overhand breaking ball that has depth along with command of their fastball and, of course, velocity and movement will get the hitter out.”

But in Bundy’s case, the 19-year-old right-hander has said that is his best pitch. Have the Orioles taken away Bundy’s top pitch?

“Why don’t you take a look at the chart with the average against cutters in the big leagues, batting average against and then come back and tell me that that’s a great pitch,” Duquette said.

“We don’t like the cutter. We don’t like the cutter as an effective pitch. Name me all the great pitchers that used it as their primary pitch in the big leagues.”

Don’t bring up Mariano Rivera, because I did and Duquette isn’t hearing that one.

“That’s a fastball. That’s a fastball. That’s his only pitch, he’s a one-pitch wonder. It’s his fastball,” Duquette said. “Name me all the pitchers in the big leagues that make a living with a cut fastball? Rivera’s is a fastball. It moves.”

[Can_of_corn]

Sorry, but why should pitchers blindly accept changes? These are adults, not kids who are balls of clay to be molded from the ground up and rob them of their individuality. They aren't robots. By the time pitchers get to

that level, they already have a really good idea of what works for them mechanically, what pitches work for them and what approaches work for them. If any of those aren't working, then ok, but don't fix what isn't broken.

Obviously, Jake was not given any freedom to decide what worked best for him and instead had pitching coaches cram what they] decided is best for him down his throat and it didn't work. Jake got breathing

room, freedom to do what was comfortable for him and real coaching in Chicago and the rest is history. Pitching coaches are supposed to guide pitchers and help them to find what works best for them not control and

micromanage them. I believe Erik Bedard also had similar issues with Leo Mazzone who was also a control freak.

Where did I say they should accept them blindly?

What I said was that you shouldn't fight changes every step of the way.

Did you watch Jake with the O's?

Did it ever look to you like he ever considered buying into what the O's were trying to teach?

To me it looked like he was constantly spitting the bit.

You work for a group, they want you to do things their way. While you can voice your opinions to the contrary you owe it to them, as your employer, to give full effort into trying it their way. Then if it doesn't work, you can discuss things further. I don't think Jake ever gave it a full shot, which is the incorrect way to do things even if he was proven correct in the end.

[WEAVERMAN]

You know who is responsible for Arrieta not pitching well in Baltimore? Arrieta is responsible, no one else. And the author is suggesting that Tillman is not a legit big league starter? Nonsense.

Between the lines it's the pitcher responsibility to succeed, Wallace and Show don't hold their hands.

I don't think the Orioles do a good job developing pitching, but Arrieta needed a change, he got it.

[Sessh]

Where did I say they should accept them blindly?

What I said was that you shouldn't fight changes every step of the way.

Did you watch Jake with the O's?

Did it ever look to you like he ever considered buying into what the O's were trying to teach?

To me it looked like he was constantly spitting the bit.

You work for a group, they want you to do things their way. While you can voice your opinions to the contrary you owe it to them, as your employer, to give full effort into trying it their way. Then if it doesn't work, you can discuss things further. I don't think Jake ever gave it a full shot, which is the incorrect way to do things even if he was proven correct in the end.

Well, it was the right thing in the end and because the Orioles were so bullheaded about it all, we missed out on one of the best pitchers in baseball. Obviously, Jake did try it the Orioles way and he was not a good pitcher

doing it that way. I would have been fighting it too at that point.

[srock]

DD on the cutter

But in Bundy?s case, the 19-year-old right-hander has said that is his best pitch. Have the Orioles taken away Bundy?s top pitch?

?Why don?t you take a look at the chart with the average against cutters in the big leagues, batting average against and then come back and tell me that that?s a great pitch,? Duquette said.

If they took Bundy's cutter away at 19 because they wanted him to master his fastball and breaking ball then thats fine. Young guys need to work primary on what they have to improve.

I don't think anyone in the Orioles ever said he could never throw a cutter again at least not publicly.

But, according to Brooks Baseball, he has NEVER thrown a cutter in the majors, although definition of cutter vs. sinker might be the problem.

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/landing.php?player=605164

[Can_of_corn]

Well, it was the right thing in the end and because the Orioles were so bullheaded about it all, we missed out on one of the best pitchers in baseball. Obviously, Jake did try it the Orioles way and he was not a good pitcher

doing it that way. I would have been fighting it too at that point.

Did he?

Did he actually buy into what the O's were saying and try to implement the changes or did he go about it in a half-hearted manner that was doomed to fail?

To it it looked like the later. He never looked to me like he was at peace with the process.

How did he look to you?

[slakattack]

You know who is responsible for Arrieta not pitching well in Baltimore? Arrieta is responsible, no one else. And the author is suggesting that Tillman is not a legit big league starter? Nonsense.

Between the lines it's the pitcher responsibility to succeed, Wallace and Show don't hold their hands.

I don't think the Orioles do a good job developing pitching, but Arrieta needed a change, he got it.

^^This^^ I remember Jake pitching in Yankee Stadium...I believe he struck out Jeter, Cano and Tex in order...made them look sick. The next inning he got chased with out even recording an out after allowing like 5 runs. That was Jake the I remember....tons of talent and always deep inside of his own head.

[Sessh]

If they took Bundy's cutter away at 19 because they wanted him to master his fastball and breaking ball then thats fine. Young guys need to work primary on what they have to improve.

I don't think anyone in the Orioles ever said he could never throw a cutter again at least not publicly.

But, according to Brooks Baseball, he has NEVER thrown a cutter in the majors, although definition of cutter vs. sinker might be the problem.

I think he has thrown a few cutters this season, but none in his last appearance anyway. A cutter and a sinker don't have the same break. If Bundy threw a sinker, it would go down and in to righties. A cutter breaks in

to lefties. Think Mariano Rivera and I know DD insists that was not a cutter, but he's probably the only one that thinks that. His comments about that is bizarre. It was most definitely a cutter that Mo threw as evidenced

by the grip he used.

[Can_of_corn]

I think he has thrown a few cutters this season, but none in his last appearance anyway. A cutter and a sinker don't have the same break. If Bundy threw a sinker, it would go down and in to righties. A cutter breaks in

to lefties. Think Mariano Rivera and I know DD insists that was not a cutter, but he's probably the only one that thinks that. His comments about that is bizarre. It was most definitely a cutter that Mo threw as evidenced

by the grip he used.

Bundy throws the "baby slider" cutter variant. I'm pretty sure he threw one against Boston in the MLB debut.

[Can_of_corn]

I think he has thrown a few cutters this season, but none in his last appearance anyway. A cutter and a sinker don't have the same break. If Bundy threw a sinker, it would go down and in to righties. A cutter breaks in

to lefties. Think Mariano Rivera and I know DD insists that was not a cutter, but he's probably the only one that thinks that. His comments about that is bizarre. It was most definitely a cutter that Mo threw as evidenced

by the grip he used.

So does Britton throw a cutter or a two seam fastball?