What is going on with the Orioles and the cutter?

[Rene88]

I disagree that Bundy is following the same path. The article clearly states that he threw the cutter in the AFL and had discomfort, so they are going to make sure he's completely fine before he starts tossing it again. I'm fine with that.

It makes sense after reading this thread why he isn't throwing it, but you can probably understand after Arietta why fans are more than a little skeptical with that explanation. Just my two cents.

[srock]

How has the development of young starters worked for the Orioles, El Gordo?

And no agenda here. But you can keep spinning that nonsensical, maniacal BS. It's the only ammo you have.

I agree with Gordo on the cutter. It's a development philosophy not an organizational ban.

There is evidence cutters lead to injury. It's not definitive, but there are logical reasons behind the Orioles philosophy.

Will it work? Who knows. Sample sizes are very small. Only so many prospect arms can be in the system at one time. Buddy still got hurt so did Harvey. Arrieta left and became awesome. So who knows if this is the wrong choice. It's unprovable.

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[srock]

My problem is if you're eliminating that pitch completely from guys that had success with it....

This is false.

The OP article states quite clearly Bundy used the cutter in the AFL and they plan on him using it when they feel he is healthy.

The ban may have been more comprehensive under Adair, but not now.

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[thezeroes]

I disagree that Bundy is following the same path. The article clearly states that he threw the cutter in the AFL and had discomfort, so they are going to make sure he's completely fine before he starts tossing it again. I'm fine with that.

When some read articles they do not read ALL the words. They splice/decipher what they already think/believe to back up their point. During last nights game, Verducci even stated that Dylan Bundy had given up the pitch himself because of the overall effect on his recovery from TJ Surgery. This was missed by most.

[srock]

When some read articles they do not read ALL the words. They splice/decipher what they already think/believe to back up their point. During last nights game, Verducci even stated that Dylan Bundy had given up the pitch himself because of the overall effect on his recovery from TJ Surgery. This was missed by most.

To be fair, it was brutal to listen to the fox talking heads. So missing that is understandable.

You point about reading comprehension is well taken.

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[srock]

I actually thought the color commentator was very good last night. Different strokes I guess.

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I had turned the volume way down before the Orioles 7th. I may have missed the good stuff.

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[Ohfan67]

I disagree that Bundy is following the same path. The article clearly states that he threw the cutter in the AFL and had discomfort, so they are going to make sure he's completely fine before he starts tossing it again. I'm fine with that.

Exactly. How could anyone read Buck's quotes and not get this?

[LookitsPuck]

Actually, it wasn't said how much Bundy has been throwing it in the AFL. So we are still playing this guessing game.

There are numerous articles out there regarding the cutter. A lot of confusion around the pitch. And perhaps worse, the O's have had zero data to actual backup that they've been successful with it.

[El Gordo]

There is no data. How could there be? Buck definitely intimated that they felt his cutter lead to some issue and they were going to hold off on him using it for now. He sound the plan was for Bundy to use it again at some point whether later this season or next. Sounds reasonable to me based on what they think. They could be wrong. Maybe the cutter had nothing to do with any problems. They are erring on the side of caution. Again, no problem with that.

What a maniacal nonsensical point of view. :laughlol:

[LookitsPuck]

There is no data. How could there be? Buck definitely intimated that they felt his cutter lead to some issue and they were going to hold off on him using it for now. He sound the plan was for Bundy to use it again at some point whether later this season or next. Sounds reasonable to me based on what they think. They could be wrong. Maybe the cutter had nothing to do with any problems. They are erring on the side of caution. Again, no problem with that.

I'm talking, of course, on the organizational edict against the cutter. Is this still in motion? If so, are we still drafting players whose bread and butter is such? And then taking it away and wondering why they're not as dominant?

Buck can say that Bundy threw his cutter in the AFL. That's fine. I'm curious how much he actually threw it when he's been healthy. There's not much evidence that it causes injury. Not anymore than a curveball.

The Bundy situation certainly sparked a bigger discussion on this because this organization does a lot of things backwards with absolutely no proof that what they're doing is effective. If there's one organization with no fruit bearer from young starters...it's the Orioles. And we know this issue was in place until at least late 2013 and most likely 2014, too. Hence the discussion.

[Ruzious]

How has the development of young starters worked for the Orioles, El Gordo?

And no agenda here. But you can keep spinning that nonsensical, maniacal BS. It's the only ammo you have.

If this is the right way to go, why do we keep failing year after year - while our prospects do much better elsewhere?

[Sessh]

... There's not much evidence that it causes injury. Not anymore than a curveball. ..

There is actually way more evidence that throwing fastballs is the top cause of arm injuries. The harder you throw, the higher the risk. Here's just one such article.

For all the talk about the main culprit being curves, sliders, cutters etc, there doesn't seem to be much if any evidence to support that. There is, however, for the fastball. I am sure that bad mechanics also play a role, but no one ever points to the fastball.

[LookitsPuck]

There is actually way more evidence that throwing fastballs is the top cause of arm injuries. The harder you throw, the higher the risk. Here's just one such article.

For all the talk about the main culprit being curves, sliders, cutters etc, there doesn't seem to be much if any evidence to support that. There is, however, for the fastball. I am sure that bad mechanics also play a role, but no one ever points to the fastball.

For every article that talks about that, there is as many or more talking about the problems with pitches like curveballs.

I'd encourage everyone to read the article above talking about the cutter league wide vs. the Orioles.

[LookitsPuck]

If this is the right way to go, why do we keep failing year after year - while our prospects do much better elsewhere?

That's exactly right.

And here's something that just makes me shake my head:

http://news.soxprospects.com/2016/05/the-write-up-eduardo-rodriguez.html

In particular:

Getting back to the positives, in addition to his overall strike-throwing ability in the outing, another positive takeaway was Rodriguez’s addition of a cutter to his arsenal. The pitch sat 86-88 mph and appears to be an immediate average-grade offering with horizontal cutting action that is shorter than that of his slider. The pitch is another effective way to help keep hitters off the fastball and disrupt timing to induce weak contact. It also gives another look to that slider, which comes in at a lower velocity range of 80-83 mph with longer tilt.

[Sessh]

For every article that talks about that, there is as many or more talking about the problems with pitches like curveballs.

I'd encourage everyone to read the article above talking about the cutter league wide vs. the Orioles.

With little leaguers, sure. Even that has been largely disproven, though.

But as the research into the biomechanics of pitching has evolved, the debate has grown more robust, and more perplexing. A recent major study shows curveballs pose no greater risk than that of other pitches. And many studies lately have shown that the greatest threat to young arms is not throwing curves but making too many pitches of any kind.

Source

I really don't feel like linking a whole bunch of articles, but the general consensus there is that throwing too many pitches is the problem and not curveballs or any other pitch.