So was Duquette right?

[foxfield]

27 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Of course it's a myth that a couple deadline deals will automatically "strengthen out the future".

They can help, of course.   Or they can be total busts.   Or anywhere in between.   People in favor of dumping always emphasize the positive, of course.

Several years ago the Tigers made a bunch of sell-deals at the deadline... Cespedes, Price.   They certainly got some quality back.   Yet they still suck.

The Phillies made their much ballyhooed deal for Hamels a couple years ago and here they are a couple years later with the worst record in baseball.

Being good enough to compete is never guaranteed.   You shouldn't throw it away.

Now all that being said, I was actually pretty convinced myself by July 31 that this team wasn't good enough to compete, and have been pleasantly surprised by recent play.   I would not have been upset if we had made good deals for expiring assets.   I wasn't chomping at the bit for it at the first sign of adversity in late May like some people on here were -- as always, I consider it a last resort if you can't compete, unlike a lot of folks who think it is a legitimate strategy that should be pursued from the outset (maybe year after year, always chasing some great mythical future like the Tigers are).   But by July 31 I was actually willing to drop back and punt.   Based on how this team looked at the time.   That said, I don't agree with your basic statement, which you phrased:  "Strengthening the future is more important than a small-percentage run at the 2nd wild card".   The real question is, do you take a move that has some PERCENT chance of strengthening the future at the expense of a small percentage run at the playoffs.   When you phrase it the way you did, you make it seem like all deadline deals work out, and your option is definitely strengthening the future, or making the small percentage run.   And of course that's not true.   You are making deals that have some chance of strenghthening the future.   Some of them do, and some of them don't.    Just like you have some chance of making the playoffs this year.

I was definitely open to making a move. But were we smart to "go for it" or did we not really have any pieces that people wanted to pay a good rate to acquire.  Virtually every tradable piece was trending down at the worst possible time.

Im gonna say he has made some pretty good chicken salad out of what we were.  We can debate what to do with some of those assets as soon as we close 2017.

[Tx Oriole]

49 minutes ago, Ripken said:

No.  They still should have sold and sold big, just like the last two years.  Strengthening the future is more important than a small-percentage run at the 2nd wild card, esp while we have a bad rotation.

That's what I believed. The O's are winning now. Now I wonder if they can keep it going. Yes DD deserves some credit. 

 

[Cumberbundy]

45 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Of course it's a myth that a couple deadline deals will automatically "strengthen out the future".

They can help, of course.   Or they can be total busts.   Or anywhere in between.   People in favor of dumping always emphasize the positive, of course.

Several years ago the Tigers made a bunch of sell-deals at the deadline... Cespedes, Price.   They certainly got some quality back.   Yet they still suck.

The Phillies made their much ballyhooed deal for Hamels a couple years ago and here they are a couple years later with the worst record in baseball.

Being good enough to compete is never guaranteed.   You shouldn't throw it away.

Now all that being said, I was actually pretty convinced myself by July 31 that this team wasn't good enough to compete, and have been pleasantly surprised by recent play.   I would not have been upset if we had made good deals for expiring assets.   I wasn't chomping at the bit for it at the first sign of adversity in late May like some people on here were -- as always, I consider it a last resort if you can't compete, unlike a lot of folks who think it is a legitimate strategy that should be pursued from the outset (maybe year after year, always chasing some great mythical future like the Tigers are).   But by July 31 I was actually willing to drop back and punt.   Based on how this team looked at the time.   That said, I don't agree with your basic statement, which you phrased:  "Strengthening the future is more important than a small-percentage run at the 2nd wild card".   The real question is, do you take a move that has some PERCENT chance of strengthening the future at the expense of a small percentage run at the playoffs.   When you phrase it the way you did, you make it seem like all deadline deals work out, and your option is definitely strengthening the future, or making the small percentage run.   And of course that's not true.   You are making deals that have some chance of strenghthening the future.   Some of them do, and some of them don't.    Just like you have some chance of making the playoffs this year.

Philly should have kept Hamels? 

[Cumberbundy]

15 minutes ago, foxfield said:

I was definitely open to making a move. But were we smart to "go for it" or did we not really have any pieces that people wanted to pay a good rate to acquire.  Virtually every tradable piece was trending down at the worst possible time.

Im gonna say he has made some pretty good chicken salad out of what we were.  We can debate what to do with some of those assets as soon as we close 2017.

Ok but he made us what we were. Right? He's make salad out of his ?

I voted in favor of Becks bc the value is great no matter how much I like any 19 year old, but the guys trending down could have been moved before they were trending down. The rotation is 3 men short and he's only been asked to get 3 men. 

I think we are as good as the other teams bc there are just too many teams in the league, the product is poor. I enjoy it but pitching is awful. We can't find guys to throw strikes for 4 innings.

Castro may be our mvp, we may revolutionize the long man in mlb, I say that with some sincerity, I think something is there.

[SteveA]

26 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

Philly should have kept Hamels? 

No, didn't say that.   Just pointing out that these deals aren't always sure things and they don't necessarily make you good in the future.

To me, the best way to be good in the future is to draft well, scout well, make good international signings, don't make stupid deals like trading Davies.   We don't do a lot of those things, unfortunately.   But that's how you do it.

If you do that you should go into most seasons hoping to contend, and then punting a season on July 31 should only be a last resort if everything has gone wrong.   Not a planned strategy like some people around here see it.    It's like the ejector seat for a fighter pilot... you use it when necessary but you don't plan your missions around its use.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

  I said when the traded occurred that Bobby Dickerson could make a lot of difference in Beckham's defense.   Others said no the Rays have coaches too.  But now, if we are listening, we hear how Bobby is working with Beckham on his defense and we can see the difference if we want to admit it. 

Well of course I expect Dickerson to be working with Beckham on his defense - that's his job.    But can I see a difference?    I don't think so. The very first thing we heard about Beckham was that he'll make a great play one minute and a head-scratching error the next.    That's what I've seen.    He's made six errors in 26 games -- about a 35-error pace.    I've also seen Schoop bail him out twice on errant throws to 2B.     Have I seen him make some great plays?    Yes, including at several games in person (like last night).    But the basic report on his defense is accurate.    

[25 Nuggets]

13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Well of course I expect Dickerson to be working with Beckham on his defense - that's his job.    But can I see a difference?    I don't think so. The very first thing we heard about Beckham was that he'll make a great play one minute and a head-scratching error the next.    That's what I've seen.    He's made six errors in 26 games -- about a 35-error pace.    I've also seen Schoop bail him out twice on errant throws to 2B.     Have I seen him make some great plays?    Yes, including at several games in person (like last night).    But the basic report on his defense is accurate.    

Oh well - if he was a consistent defender there's no way the Orioles would have gotten him the way they did.

[eddie83]

14 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Well of course I expect Dickerson to be working with Beckham on his defense - that's his job.    But can I see a difference?    I don't think so. The very first thing we heard about Beckham was that he'll make a great play one minute and a head-scratching error the next.    That's what I've seen.    He's made six errors in 26 games -- about a 35-error pace.    I've also seen Schoop bail him out twice on errant throws to 2B.     Have I seen him make some great plays?    Yes, including at several games in person (like last night).    But the basic report on his defense is accurate.    

It may not make a difference but working with him in Sarasota will be different. A chance to work on things daily and not play meaningful games at the same time.  Hope he can carry it into games in April. 

[Frobby]

Make that 7 errors in 27 games.

i don't mean to imply I'm unhappy with the Beckham trade.    It's worked out well to far and addresses a long-term need.  

[25 Nuggets]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Make that 7 errors in 27 games.

i don't mean to imply I'm unhappy with the Beckham trade.    It's worked out well to far and addresses a long-term need.  

Yeah it definitely seems that his problem is with an erratic arm.  I wonder if his future is at another position.  But for now, he solves the SS vacuum cheaply.

[Cumberbundy]

You guys jinxed the D ?

[Hallas]

4 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Duquette made the right move in trying to trade Britton, but not selling him low. Once that didn't happened, he took a chance on Beckham which has paid off like no one could have imagined so far. My only issue with the trade is I felt like he could have gotten him without giving up Tobias Myers since Tampa was basically dumping him and Myers is not the kind of player that should be given away in that kind of trade. Maybe Tampa held fast and wouldn't make the the deal without him, and Duquette doesn't think he'll be around when/if Myers makes it to the majors, so he figured why not? Beckham has been otherworldly and looks like a fixture at SS for the next few seasons on a team in need of one so can't really harp on him too much for the trade.

Overall, the Orioles have gotten hot and the rest of the 2nd wild card teams are as flawed as the Orioles so honestly, whoever can stay hot the longest this September will sneak into the playoffs. Will that be the Orioles? Who knows, but as long as Tillman and Ubaldo are getting run out there it's hard to get too excited.

What Duquette and Buck definitely get credit for is playing meaningful baseball in September once again. It's something they've done every year they've been here minus perhaps one season. Nothing wrong with that.

 

 

 Pretty different tune from you regarding the deadline after we've seen Beckham play a bit.  Did Beckham's production over the past month really change your mind that much?

[Tony-OH]

5 minutes ago, Hallas said:

 Pretty different tune from you regarding the deadline after we've seen Beckham play a bit.  Did Beckham's production over the past month really change your mind that much?

Huh? What have I said differently? I didn't like the Beckham trade because of who we gave up. Obviously Beckham has played out of his mind offensively but I still don't think this team should have been giving up young pitching, especially one with a starter's repertoire and command. 

As for the Orioles competing? Yeah, i think they have a chance now to make the 2nd wild card. do I think they are a serious World Series contender? No, but at the end of the day, the team is hot and looking good so who knows?

 

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

My only concern is how hot the offense is, which sounds funny. I've been burned enough and seen it come down dramatically. Our numbers with RISP especially. I do think Coolbaugh deserves some credit for what seems to be growth from our hitters. 

For what we thought could be an incredibly undisciplined offense, it feels like 1-9 our guys are giving pitchers fits. But I'm still worried it could just be an offensive wave we are riding. Time will tell, but this is pretty damn fun. 

 

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Well of course I expect Dickerson to be working with Beckham on his defense - that's his job.    But can I see a difference?    I don't think so. The very first thing we heard about Beckham was that he'll make a great play one minute and a head-scratching error the next.    That's what I've seen.    He's made six errors in 26 games -- about a 35-error pace.    I've also seen Schoop bail him out twice on errant throws to 2B.     Have I seen him make some great plays?    Yes, including at several games in person (like last night).    But the basic report on his defense is accurate.    

Bobby will help him get better.  It will take some time.   He has helped all the infielders.