A report on the Baysox players that may make the O's

[Frobby]

I generally favor getting players some time in AAA.    I'm willing to make exceptions, but for me, they're exceptions, not the rule.     I do think Hays may be able to handle it.    That's a decision for next spring.   

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Gausman? Yeah, he couldn't have benefited from the extra time to actually learn how to throw a slider that didn't end up in the seats. Kevin Gausman's career numbers are average at best and has never been able to find consistency, so I'm not sure why you thought he was a good name to throw around. Bundy hasn't been all that great in his time in the majors, either. Way too early to say he wasn't hurt.

Machado isn't even in the same discussion as the other two. He's not a typical case at all. I'm kind of surprised you would speak of him as if he wasn't the rare case that he is and then go so far as to mention him with the other two. They aren't even in the same discussion as Machado.. at least not yet and may never be.

I didn't ask if you agreed with the decision (I think Gausman was rushed and their overall handling of him was poor and may have retarded his development).  I asked if it was an example of the "dark years" you were talking about.  Teams, including the O's, have players skip levels fairly frequently.

As for why I mentioned those three, they were the last three that you could say were rushed.  And for the record the only thing that hurt Bundy was the injuries.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I generally favor getting players some time in AAA.    I'm willing to make exceptions, but for me, they're exceptions, not the rule.     I do think Hays may be able to handle it.    That's a decision for next spring.   

I'm more concerned about it for pitchers than hitters.  Particularly if the position player has a glove that will play in the majors.

[Sessh]

I remember we did it all too often in the dark yeas with players that were not good enough to make that leap. Daniel Cabrera comes to mind. I am not disputing that there are players that can make that leap, but we're seriously sitting here discussing five players to make that leap in this thread? Seriously? It is my opinion that there is far more potential to negatively affect a player's development by rushing them from AA to the majors than there is by being patient and letting them develop a year at AAA which has competition much closer to what they will see at the major league level than AA offers. How can an extra year hurt a player? One less year certainly has more potential to do that. There are players that can make the leap, I don't doubt that, but why are we talking about all these guys? I personally don't think Hays can do it, but I am most optimistic about his chances. Santander has been injured and should get the extra year at Norfolk. The others mentioned shouldn't even be in the discussion. Generally speaking, I don't like rushing guys through the system like that. There are exceptions, but it's not the rule.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Sessh said:

I remember we did it all too often in the dark yeas with players that were not good enough to make that leap. Daniel Cabrera comes to mind. I am not disputing that there are players that can make that leap, but we're seriously sitting here discussing five players to make that leap in this thread? Seriously? It is my opinion that there is far more potential to negatively affect a player's development by rushing them from AA to the majors than there is by being patient and letting them develop a year at AAA which has competition much closer to what they will see at the major league level than AA offers. How can an extra year hurt a player? One less year certainly has more potential to do that. There are players that can make the leap, I don't doubt that, but why are we talking about all these guys? I personally don't think Hays can do it, but I am most optimistic about his chances. Santander has been injured and should get the extra year at Norfolk. The others mentioned shouldn't even be in the discussion. Generally speaking, I don't like rushing guys through the system like that. There are exceptions, but it's not the rule.

Yes, Daniel Cabrera, that famous position player.

Oh wait, Daniel Cabrera the most non position player ever.

So you have no examples of rushed position players that were damaged by being rushed.

[foxfield]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yes, Daniel Cabrera, that famous position player.

Oh wait, Daniel Cabrera the most non position player ever.

So you have no examples of rushed position players that were damaged by being rushed.

Wait, you mean real evidence to support an opinion?  Come on Corn...

[Tx Oriole]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

Glad to see we're back to rushing guys from Bowie straight to the majors instead of giving them a year at Norfolk and letting them fully develop. Just like the dark years. Hays will be exposed with the breaking ball, though. He's overmatched with breaking stuff, but he can hit a fastball and cement mixers in the middle of the plate. It's only a matter of time before the league figures that out and stops throwing him fastballs for strikes. Any time he has been thrown quality breaking pitches, he's completely fooled and is nowhere close with swings.

Santander may or may not be good, but once again, here we are praying for another rule 5 pick to become something special as well. Bowie is, once again, the new Norfolk because the major league club is desperate for talent and simply can't wait an extra year for these young guys to properly develop in the system. Dark years, here we come again. Call me negative all you want, but this formula is nothing that hasn't been seen before here.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. 

[Frobby]

26 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yes, Daniel Cabrera, that famous position player.

Oh wait, Daniel Cabrera the most non position player ever.

So you have no examples of rushed position players that were damaged by being rushed.

Even for a pitcher, Cabrera is not very comparable to anyone since.    He pitched 5 games above Delmarva (where he'd been just so-so, 4.24 ERA and 1.46 WHIP) when he was called up to the majors.

 

 

[Pheasants]

I think we have to remember that Norfolk is not a standard setting.  I feel some players hurt their development by trying to produce power in an anti-power environment rather than being themselves.  One name that comes to mind, and I can't prove that he really could have been somebody without Norfolk and/or pills, is Larry Bigbee.  If Bowie is more like Baltimore in how the ball carries, etc., than Bowie to Baltimore makes sense. 

As for pitchers, I think it was Drungo who used to argue that there were only so many pitches in an arm so why waste a bunch in the minors if someone looks ready. 

 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Pheasants said:

I think we have to remember that Norfolk is not a standard setting.  I feel some players hurt their development by trying to produce power in an anti-power environment rather than being themselves.  One name that comes to mind, and I can't prove that he really could have been somebody without Norfolk and/or pills, is Larry Bigbee.  If Bowie is more like Baltimore in how the ball carries, etc., than Bowie to Baltimore makes sense. 

As for pitchers, I think it was Drungo who used to argue that there were only so many pitches in an arm so why waste a bunch in the minors if someone looks ready. 

 

I am very OK with rushing relievers but I do think most starters need a fair bit of developmental time at various levels to learn how to navigate a ML lineup three or more times.

[survivedc]

11 minutes ago, Pheasants said:

I think we have to remember that Norfolk is not a standard setting.  I feel some players hurt their development by trying to produce power in an anti-power environment rather than being themselves.  One name that comes to mind, and I can't prove that he really could have been somebody without Norfolk and/or pills, is Larry Bigbee.  If Bowie is more like Baltimore in how the ball carries, etc., than Bowie to Baltimore makes sense. 

As for pitchers, I think it was Drungo who used to argue that there were only so many pitches in an arm so why waste a bunch in the minors if someone looks ready. 

 

As far as Bigbie, I don't think he ever played for the Tides, wasn't the AAA team in ottowa then?

[bobmc]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I am very OK with rushing relievers but I do think most starters need a fair bit of developmental time at various levels to learn how to navigate a ML lineup TWO or more times.

FTFY 

Agreed but that first outing for Tanner Phenom will be a test.  Garbage time or when "game is on the line" like last night when Buck kept him in "learning mode" close by.

 

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

I remember we did it all too often in the dark yeas with players that were not good enough to make that leap. Daniel Cabrera comes to mind. I am not disputing that there are players that can make that leap, but we're seriously sitting here discussing five players to make that leap in this thread? Seriously? It is my opinion that there is far more potential to negatively affect a player's development by rushing them from AA to the majors than there is by being patient and letting them develop a year at AAA which has competition much closer to what they will see at the major league level than AA offers. How can an extra year hurt a player? One less year certainly has more potential to do that. There are players that can make the leap, I don't doubt that, but why are we talking about all these guys? I personally don't think Hays can do it, but I am most optimistic about his chances. Santander has been injured and should get the extra year at Norfolk. The others mentioned shouldn't even be in the discussion. Generally speaking, I don't like rushing guys through the system like that. There are exceptions, but it's not the rule.

Just curious.   What was the last O's team that you liked?

[turtlebowl]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

I remember we did it all too often in the dark yeas with players that were not good enough to make that leap. Daniel Cabrera comes to mind. I am not disputing that there are players that can make that leap, but we're seriously sitting here discussing five players to make that leap in this thread? Seriously? It is my opinion that there is far more potential to negatively affect a player's development by rushing them from AA to the majors than there is by being patient and letting them develop a year at AAA which has competition much closer to what they will see at the major league level than AA offers. How can an extra year hurt a player? One less year certainly has more potential to do that. There are players that can make the leap, I don't doubt that, but why are we talking about all these guys? I personally don't think Hays can do it, but I am most optimistic about his chances. Santander has been injured and should get the extra year at Norfolk. The others mentioned shouldn't even be in the discussion. Generally speaking, I don't like rushing guys through the system like that. There are exceptions, but it's not the rule.

Hitters and pitchers is a completely separate argument.  I will agree with you that pitchers can get hurt when rushed because they likely don't know their craft well enough to succeed against the best hitters in the world.  You get in once in 5 days and if you keep getting pulled early means less experience. Also getting shelled  as a pitcher may mean they start experimenting with mechanics and new pitches which for a young pitcher, could cause arm issues .  Hitting is completely different, if you have that special hit tool you can hit everywhere and everything.  Sure it may take a learning curve to figure it all out but the great hitters will. The quicker these great hitters are exposed to the best pitchers the quicker they learn.  Schoop is the perfect example of this.  His numbers at AA probably didn't scream MLB ready.  He had the talent which any good scout or coach could recognize.  Did him getting pulled up early screw his career? He learned from some rough patches, kept his head above water and figured it out.  If a young hitter becomes traumatized by struggling early on my thought is they likely wouldn't have had the mental makeup to play in the majors anyways. The biggest battle for any great hitter is mainly the battle of the mind.  

[wildcard]

8 minutes ago, turtlebowl said:

Hitters and pitchers is a completely separate argument.  I will agree with you that pitchers can get hurt when rushed because they likely don't know their craft well enough to succeed against the best hitters in the world.  You get in once in 5 days and if you keep getting pulled early means less experience. Also getting shelled  as a pitcher may mean they start experimenting with mechanics and new pitches which for a young pitcher, could cause arm issues .  Hitting is completely different, if you have that special hit tool you can hit everywhere and everything.  Sure it may take a learning curve to figure it all out but the great hitters will. The quicker these great hitters are exposed to the best pitchers the quicker they learn.  Schoop is the perfect example of this.  His numbers at AA probably didn't scream MLB ready.  He had the talent which any good scout or coach could recognize.  Did him getting pulled up early screw his career? He learned from some rough patches, kept his head above water and figured it out.  If a young hitter becomes traumatized by struggling early on my thought is they likely wouldn't have had the mental makeup to play in the majors anyways. The biggest battle for any great hitter is mainly the battle of the mind.  

Pitchers that are not rushed get hurt.