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Cafardo: Showalter losing the clubhouse

eddie83

By eddie83
in Orioles Talk

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mdbdotcom Hangout Grand Counsel

mdbdotcom

Posted
Posted

A thought and a question.

1) The guys Buck has counted on for years to police the clubhouse - Jones, Davis, Hardy, Wieters, Tillman - were either gone or largely irrelevant this season. Players who can't get their own jobs done cannot lead. 

2) Cafardo has had a good relationship with Duquette since DD ran the Red Sox. Could it be that DD was the source of these rumors with tensions between he and Buck escalating?

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Tx Oriole Hangout Grand Counsel

Tx Oriole

Posted
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9 hours ago, O's are Legends said:

Thanks for posting.

"5. Buck Showalter, manager, Orioles — Did Showalter lose control of his clubhouse? It’s a sentiment you’re hearing more and more among baseball insiders, and players have told their agents that was the case."

Interesting and if true, just speculating here, but wonder how many players essentially lost faith in Buck after not using Britton.

Other than that, maybe some of the players were tired of seeing Miley, Ubaldo and Tillman constantly take the mound. Once again, pure speculation and until more concrete info comes out, that's about all one can do.

Who else was Buck going to pitch if he didn't use Tillman, Miley and Ubaldo? As for not using Britton in a playoff game well wasnt that 3 years ago. Don't  get me wrong I think  Buck needs to go this offseason. But this report is dog poo. Why is he starting all this mess now? 

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glenn__davis Hangout Grand Counsel

glenn__davis

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36 minutes ago, Tx Oriole said:

Who else was Buck going to pitch if he didn't use Tillman, Miley and Ubaldo? As for not using Britton in a playoff game well wasnt that 3 years ago. Don't  get me wrong I think  Buck needs to go this offseason. But this report is dog poo. Why is he starting all this mess now? 

The Britton playoff game was just last year.

Honestly I'm sure the players weren't a fan of that but I doubt that had any lingering effect.  I have no idea if Buck has lost the clubhouse or not and don't think that's measurable in any real way, but I would think that if he did it would be for running out Tillman, Miley and particularly Jimenez for so long.  There was no reason whatsoever for those guys to be making starts later in the season.  You could maybe make a small case for Miley, but absolutely not for the others.  Starting anyone - ANYONE - over them in the 2nd half of the season would have been preferable.

I love Buck and I don't want him going anywhere, but the fact the Ubaldo Jimenez was still making starts for us while we were in the playoff hunt was ludicrous.

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tntoriole Hangout Grand Counsel

tntoriole

Posted
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7 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

The Britton playoff game was just last year.

Honestly I'm sure the players weren't a fan of that but I doubt that had any lingering effect.  I have no idea if Buck has lost the clubhouse or not and don't think that's measurable in any real way, but I would think that if he did it would be for running out Tillman, Miley and particularly Jimenez for so long.  There was no reason whatsoever for those guys to be making starts later in the season.  You could maybe make a small case for Miley, but absolutely not for the others.  Starting anyone - ANYONE - over them in the 2nd half of the season would have been preferable.

I love Buck and I don't want him going anywhere, but the fact the Ubaldo Jimenez was still making starts for us while we were in the playoff hunt was ludicrous.

If any players blamed Buck rather than Dan for the incompetent pitchers being run out there, then they are idiots. 

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Ruzious Hangout Grand Counsel

Ruzious

Posted
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9 hours ago, Enjoy Terror said:

I guess I don’t get the joke. Why would a manager lose a clubhouse while winning?

You answered your own question.  If Buck has a more talented team, they don't lose, and this tiresome BS... about losing the clubhouse never comes up.  

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glenn__davis Hangout Grand Counsel

glenn__davis

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34 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

If any players blamed Buck rather than Dan for the incompetent pitchers being run out there, then they are idiots. 

The starting performance was so bad there's blame to go around.  Dan's record for obtaining starting pitching certainly is not good.  But there was zero reason, at least from a competitive baseball standpoint, to have stuck with Tillman and Jimenez for so long.  I love Tillman and he had earned a long leash this season IMO, but he still managed to stay in the rotation about a month too long.  Jimenez had earned  nothing but still managed to retain his rotation spot for most of the season.  I cannot imagine how frustrating it must have been to watch the starting pitching on this team this year.

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Tx Oriole Hangout Grand Counsel

Tx Oriole

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38 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

The Britton playoff game was just last year.

Honestly I'm sure the players weren't a fan of that but I doubt that had any lingering effect.  I have no idea if Buck has lost the clubhouse or not and don't think that's measurable in any real way, but I would think that if he did it would be for running out Tillman, Miley and particularly Jimenez for so long.  There was no reason whatsoever for those guys to be making starts later in the season.  You could maybe make a small case for Miley, but absolutely not for the others.  Starting anyone - ANYONE - over them in the 2nd half of the season would have been preferable.

I love Buck and I don't want him going anywhere, but the fact the Ubaldo Jimenez was still making starts for us while we were in the playoff hunt was ludicrous.

I would like to know who would take Ubaldo spot? Castro maybe? I don't know. When was this team in the playoff hunt? They were never in serious contention. 

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glenn__davis Hangout Grand Counsel

glenn__davis

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2 minutes ago, Tx Oriole said:

I would like to know who would take Ubaldo spot? Castro maybe? I don't know. When was this team in the playoff hunt? They were never in serious contention. 

Anyone.  Anyone.  I don't care.  Castro, sure.  Ynoa.  Mike Wright.  Tyler Wilson.  Lucas Long.  Bob Milacki.  Anyone other than Ubaldo.

They were a game out of the wild card in late August.  That's in the playoff hunt.

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

Posted
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1 hour ago, glenn__davis said:

The Britton playoff game was just last year.

Honestly I'm sure the players weren't a fan of that but I doubt that had any lingering effect.  I have no idea if Buck has lost the clubhouse or not and don't think that's measurable in any real way, but I would think that if he did it would be for running out Tillman, Miley and particularly Jimenez for so long.  There was no reason whatsoever for those guys to be making starts later in the season.  You could maybe make a small case for Miley, but absolutely not for the others.  Starting anyone - ANYONE - over them in the 2nd half of the season would have been preferable.

I love Buck and I don't want him going anywhere, but the fact the Ubaldo Jimenez was still making starts for us while we were in the playoff hunt was ludicrous.

Our AAA pitchers were horrible most of the year.    The alternatives might have done better, but it certainly wasn't obvious.   Here are the 2017 major league ERA's of Norfolk's top starters:

Aquino 7.43

Ynoa 4.15

Wilson 7.04

Wright 5.76

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glenn__davis Hangout Grand Counsel

glenn__davis

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3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Our AAA pitchers were horrible most of the year.    The alternatives might have done better, but it certainly wasn't obvious.   Here are the 2017 major league ERA's of Norfolk's top starters:

Aquino 7.43

Ynoa 4.15

Wilson 7.04

Wright 5.76

I know.  I just don't care lol.  I would have rather seen literally anyone else than Ubaldo at that point.  And I hate saying that because he seems like a great guy and it's nothing personal against him.  I would have taken anyone else in the organization starting over him at that point.

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

Posted
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5 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

I know.  I just don't care lol.  I would have rather seen literally anyone else than Ubaldo at that point.  And I hate saying that because he seems like a great guy and it's nothing personal against him.  I would have taken anyone else in the organization starting over him at that point.

Well, at least we won't need to worry about it next year.   But we do need to worry about who takes his spot.   

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Otter Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

Otter

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Why are we assuming the Britton wild card game decision is the reason for Buck supposedly losing the clubhouse?  That was an in-game tactical decision that backfired.  However, if I'm an O's player I'm much more upset about Buck throwing Castro and other young pitchers under the bus publicly for the TTTP issue.  A good manager never publicly calls out players for a mechanical issue (not a mental mistake or lack of effort).  It's obvious Buck was frustrated by the end of the year, but it's his job to hold it together publicly and reprimand privately.  That being said, none of us know if he really "lost" the clubhouse or not.  But I guess a year from now it won't matter...

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ArtVanDelay Hangout Grand Counsel

ArtVanDelay

Posted
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8 hours ago, OFFNY said:

 

 

 

 

o

 

Explain how a seed of doubt about a Wildcard playoff game in October of 2016 "snowballed" if they started the next season (2017) at 22-10?

 

And how did a team with an absolute mess of a starting rotation and an extremely overworked bullpen manage to stay in contention through early September if they were still pouting and dragging their feet about a bad decision made by their manager from a playoff game from the previous October? 

 

o

Pouting and dragging their feet?   They’re professionals.  I think you’re over-dramatizing what losing the clubhouse is.  The American League was terrible this year.  In a normal year, we wouldn’t have been in contention so long. 

I’m not even arguing that Buck did lose the clubhouse.  I have no idea.  I’m just giving reasons why it’s possible.  

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