Is Buck a tough manager to pitch for?

[Frobby]

9 hours ago, Rene88 said:

Because Kranitz was/is a terrific pitching coach. I can’t tell you how many times I bitched about him letting Kranitz go. But Buck has his guys...dumb ass irresponsible  move.

I don’t see it as irresponsible.    The O’s had a 5.13 and 5.15 ERA in the two seasons under Kranitz before Buck arrived, then 5.18 in 2010 up until Buck became manager.    Nothing about that screamed that Kranitz was a terrific pitching coach.   The rest of the season they were at 3.54, and Buck might reasonably have concluded that some changes he instituted upon arrival, that Kranitz hadn’t made, were the reason for the drastic improvement.    

That said, I wouldn’t have messed with what was working, and the guys Buck brought in to replace Kranitz did a terrible job.  

[mdbdotcom]

Buck has had two good pitching coaches since his arrival in Baltimore; Kranitz and Wallace. He fired Kranitz and Brady alienated Wallace by working directly with the pitchers. 

The other pitching coaches chosen by Buck - Connor, Adair, McDowell - don't seem to have been helpful to our pitchers. Maybe Buck isn't good at selecting pitching coaches. 

[gtman55]

28 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

 Maybe Buck isn't good at selecting pitching coaches. 

Buck isn't good at a lot of things. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks the Orioles need a new manager.

[Tx Oriole]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

I don’t see it as irresponsible.    The O’s had a 5.13 and 5.15 ERA in the two seasons under Kranitz before Buck arrived, then 5.18 in 2010 up until Buck became manager.    Nothing about that screamed that Kranitz was a terrific pitching coach.   The rest of the season they were at 3.54, and Buck might reasonably have concluded that some changes he instituted upon arrival, that Kranitz hadn’t made, were the reason for the drastic improvement.    

That said, I wouldn’t have messed with what was working, and the guys Buck brought in to replace Kranitz did a terrible job.  

Yes I agree. Buck should have known if it ain't broke you don't fix it. I can't remember who he signed to replace Kranitz. 

[Tx Oriole]

1 minute ago, gtman55 said:

Buck isn't good at a lot of things. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks the Orioles need a new manager.

Yes I agree he needs to be replaced. I wonder who Angelos will pick to replace him? I still think Brady will be the next GM. 

 

[POR]

On 6/2/2018 at 12:20 AM, wildcard said:

Buck does really well with the pen except for the Britton playoff incident.

Buck insists that his starters go at least 6 innings.  And he keeps starters in too long which allows too many runs trying to achieve that goal.  Hellickson was terrible here because he could not go deep in games but Buck pushed him to do it.  In Washington they let him goes a far as he can and then replace him before he gives up a bunch on runs.  It works for him and the team.  

The pitching staff construction has be different to work when starters are not pushed to go 6.  There needs to be at least 2 inning eaters in the pen to take up the slack.  The O's have not had that many long men that put up zeros.  Buck is trying to work Castro and Wright into those spot but it has not worked consistently yet.   

Cashner was successful in Texas because they didn't push him to go deep in games.  That is not happening under Buck.  Pitchers like Bundy, Gausman and Cobb can go deep in games pretty consistently.   But even they have their days went nothing is working and they need to come out early.

This is a nice theory on Hellickson and Cashner.  However, five minutes of research on baseball reference invalidates it.

Hellickson's era in 2017 (both Phily and Baltimore) in the first three innings was 4.94.  In 2018, it is 1.50.

Cashner's era in 2017 for the first three innings was 2.14.  In 2018 it is 4.75.

I think Hellickson was not right in 2017 and he is either got healthy or fixed a mechanical issue and thru eight starts is back to his 2016 form this year. 

In Cashner's case, I think the underlying numbers in 2017 show he was not as good as he appeared to be. 

 

[Dark Helmet]

Kranitz should have never been let go. But one of Bucks buddies needed a job.

[webbrick2010]

The problem is the defense

Buck is culpable since he believes that he can hide DH's in the OF.

Most managers would have pushed for a roster that has ML outfielders. The O's have zero ML outfielders on their roster (Jones is also a DH now) in addition to no ML 3B, and way below average range at 2B and 1B, and a just passable Manny at SS

There is a reason that this is the worst team in O's history

 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, webbrick2010 said:

The problem is the defense.

That’s a big problem now.   But the pitching, especially starting pitching, has been weak for most of Buck’s tenure even when defense was a strength.  

[gtman55]

For a supposedly very smart man, Buck sure makes a ton of head scratching moves especially with pitchers.

Sometimes I think Buck does the opposite of what you expect just to show he's an outside the box thinker. Problem is a lot of the times it backfires.

[Just Regular]

The '95 Yankees had McDowell and Pettitte, '00 Diamondbacks had Big Unit, Schilling part of the year and even got 213 IP from Brian Anderson, and the '06 Rangers had Millwood and Padilla as the leaders of staffs in the years before Showalter left.

Those were a generation ago, but I do wonder if the pitching game's strategy has passed him by some.  He was good at the LaRussa style bullpen management, but I think what's happening in the last few years is LaRussa-style rosters (i.e. 12 or more pitchers) are getting blended with Weaver On Strategy roles.

Earl said many players could do something well and he was about finding what that was.  Today, the Ayalas and Dwyers are extra relievers.  What's new again in the last few years is that teams are starting to break out of the LaRussa SP/RP dichotomy, and more pitchers who can be good 2-3 innings at a time are finding a niche they didn't have in years gone by.

This growing middle segment is taking IP away from tiring starters, not ace relievers, and if it is going too far to say Buck is too old of a dog to learn this new trick, he at least hasn't been an early adopter.

[wildcard]

7 hours ago, POR said:

This is a nice theory on Hellickson and Cashner.  However, five minutes of research on baseball reference invalidates it.

Hellickson's era in 2017 (both Phily and Baltimore) in the first three innings was 4.94.  In 2018, it is 1.50.

Cashner's era in 2017 for the first three innings was 2.14.  In 2018 it is 4.75.

I think Hellickson was not right in 2017 and he is either got healthy or fixed a mechanical issue and thru eight starts is back to his 2016 form this year. 

In Cashner's case, I think the underlying numbers in 2017 show he was not as good as he appeared to be. 

 

If the O's defense was better in 2018, so would Cashner's ERA be better.

I didn't say anything about Hellickson with the Phillies.  I said Hellickson with the Nats.

[baltfan]

You guys are being unfair to Buck on this.  This trend toward the bullpen was arguably started by the Orioles and Royals.  Remember when Buck got Miller he was willing to bring him in at the best moment and also stretch him.  Now teams are taking it even a bit further and look at two times through the order, but the Orioles were one of the first teams to really crate a strong pen with the idea of not expecting too much from their starters. 

Also, guys have left and had less success, e.g. Chen. 

[sportsfan8703]

The starters have underachieved again. The bullpen choked every chance it had when the games were meaningful. 

[POR]

12 hours ago, wildcard said:

If the O's defense was better in 2018, so would Cashner's ERA be better.

I didn't say anything about Hellickson with the Phillies.  I said Hellickson with the Nats.

I was just responding to your post that said "Cashner was successful in Texas because they didn't push him to go deep in games."  I showed that even in the first three innings of the game Cashner was much better in 2017 than 2018.  

Baseball reference does not break down the time Hellickson was in Phily vs Baltimore in its era by innings split for 2017.  However, a manual check shows that Hellickson gave up 23 runs in 30 innings in the first innings of games as an Orioles.  

My point being the numbers don't back up the theory in the post that I was responding to.

As far as the defense goes, are you the guy that thinks Mancini in average in LF and the defensive stats are biased against him?