Brewers non-tender Schoop.

[sportsfan8703]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

We just nontendered Beckham, who has much more trade value upside as a complete player who can hit and play middle infield. If we were going to play that game, we could have done it with Beckham. Schoop makes even less sense. As much as Schoop brought to our team during the run, bringing him back just doesn't seem like the direction we are going.

Haha really?  Beckham is not good at baseball. It’s not even close. I think if you bat Schoop 3rd, behind Mullins and Villar, you could pretty much pencil Schoop in for 25 HR & 80+ RBI. If healthy. 

Look what he did once healthy before the deadline. I think he’s the same player he was in 2016 and 2017. He just needs everyday ABs, in OPACY, and to play 2B. 

He was in a tough spot with Milwaukee. The Brewers didn’t know they were going to go out and get both Schoop and Moustakas.  The market broke for them so they did. Then Schoop was a bench player and trying to play SS. 

Everyone is going to have their guy that they want to bring in on a one year deal. I’d take Schoop. Inflate his stats by batting him 3rd. Flip him again at the deadline. 

We might be able to do that for around what we gave Colby Rasmus last year. You have to make that move. 

[bpilktree]

1 hour ago, Aristotelian said:

We just nontendered Beckham, who has much more trade value upside as a complete player who can hit and play middle infield. If we were going to play that game, we could have done it with Beckham. Schoop makes even less sense. As much as Schoop brought to our team during the run, bringing him back just doesn't seem like the direction we are going.

How does Beckham have more trade value.  IS he a former all star with a war season over 4 in the previous year like Schoop?  Schoop had a year and a half left on his contract when we traded him basically at a decent chunk of change it they tendered him which I assume at the time they figured they would.  He brought back a former top 100 prospect that still has high upside, a major league 2nd baseman and a young raw talent with lots of upside.  Beckham had two and a half years and brought back a lottery ticket raw prospect in the lower minors.  They have no where near the same value and the previous trades show that.

[wildbillhiccup]

16 minutes ago, bpilktree said:

How does Beckham have more trade value.  IS he a former all star with a war season over 4 in the previous year like Schoop?  Schoop had a year and a half left on his contract when we traded him basically at a decent chunk of change it they tendered him which I assume at the time they figured they would.  He brought back a former top 100 prospect that still has high upside, a major league 2nd baseman and a young raw talent with lots of upside.  Beckham had two and a half years and brought back a lottery ticket raw prospect in the lower minors.  They have no where near the same value and the previous trades show that.

He doesn't. He's a terrible defender and his bat doesn't justify his defensive deficiencies. He was also rumored to be a head case in Tampa. The real question is whether or not Beckham gets an actual contract or a spring training invite. Schoop will sign for at least four times as much as Beckham. 

[atomic]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Haha really?  Beckham is not good at baseball. It’s not even close. I think if you bat Schoop 3rd, behind Mullins and Villar, you could pretty much pencil Schoop in for 25 HR & 80+ RBI. If healthy. 

 Look what he did once healthy before the deadline. I think he’s the same player he was in 2016 and 2017. He just needs everyday ABs, in OPACY, and to play 2B. 

 He was in a tough spot with Milwaukee. The Brewers didn’t know they were going to go out and get both Schoop and Moustakas.  The market broke for them so they did. Then Schoop was a bench player and trying to play SS. 

Everyone is going to have their guy that they want to bring in on a one year deal. I’d take Schoop. Inflate his stats by batting him 3rd. Flip him again at the deadline. 

We might be able to do that for around what we gave Colby Rasmus last year. You have to make that move. 

Or Schoop could bat .220 and have a .550 OPS.  If you look on Baseball Reference Schoop's most similar batter through age 26 is Earl Williams.  Earl did not have a postive WAR season after age 26.  If Schoop is as good as you say he is why would he want to sign with the Orioles?  Another team could sign him that has a chance at winning.  

 

[atomic]

6 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

He doesn't. He's a terrible defender and his bat doesn't justify his defensive deficiencies. He was also rumored to be a head case in Tampa. The real question is whether or not Beckham gets an actual contract or a spring training invite. Schoop will sign for at least four times as much as Beckham. 

Beckham and Schoop's career batting stats are almost identical

[Aglets]

7 minutes ago, atomic said:

Beckham and Schoop's career batting stats are almost identical

Yet one has been worth 5 WAR over 5 seasons and the other has been worth 11.5 over 6 seasons.   With one of those seasons alone being over 5.

If you just look at the batting component of it...........Beckham has been worth about 6 oWAR and Schoop has been worth 10.

[Tony-OH]

13 hours ago, wildcard said:

I can't think that Jonathan is the same guy defensively that he was in 2011 in Delmarva and Frederick.  He played 24 game there.

He played in 17 games at 3B in April 2014.  Manny was out to begin the season due to a knee surgery.   Flaherty was supposed to play 3B for Manny but Hardy went down with varies injuries that April and Flaherty was needed at SS.  So Schoop moved to 3B for part of April.  No prep,  just go there an play.  He was not good.   

While I reality that Jon did not do well at 3B either of these two times its not convincing to me that he could not be good there.  Having Jon prepare in ST for a season at 3B is not that.   It gives him time to adjust.   I could see him doing much better at 3B in 2019 if the price is right.

If Jon is truly limited at 2B with his range there is not real reason to keep him there. Not if the O's are trying to improve their defense. Move him to 3B where the range he has may be beneficial.

But I've watched 100s of games of him at second and his hands have not improved. They are below average. Saying all that, I don't think Schoop would be a disaster at 3B, just I'd rather give Nunez an entire season there to see how he does. I still like signing Schoop to low end contract and seeing if he can rebuild his worth to trade again. All it takes is for him to get red hot near the trading deadline again to get something.

[atomic]

7 minutes ago, Aglets said:

Yet one has been worth 5 WAR over 5 seasons and the other has been worth 11.5 over 6 seasons.   With one of those seasons alone being over 5.

If you just look at the batting component of it...........Beckham has been worth about 6 oWAR and Schoop has been worth 10.

Doesn't change the fact their offensive stats are basically the same.  Schoop just has gotten a lot more plate appearances than Beckham.  2640 vs 1423.   If Beckham had as many plate appearances as Schoop his OWar would be higher if his other numbers stayed the same.   They are very similar players.  

 

 

[wildbillhiccup]

17 minutes ago, atomic said:

Beckham and Schoop's career batting stats are almost identical

I think you and I have very different definitions for the word "identical". It's also not as simple as just projecting out numbers. I'm not even a Schoop fan, but tiosay that Beckham is his equal is an insult. 

Schoop

Season	Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
MLB Career	-	-	681	2484	322	640	1104	130	2	110	333	98	2	597	7	3	.258	.294	.444	.738	1.22
2013	BAL	AL	5	14	5	4	7	0	0	1	1	1	0	2	0	0	.286	.333	.500	.833	9.00
2014	BAL	AL	137	455	48	95	161	18	0	16	45	13	0	122	2	0	.209	.244	.354	.598	1.36
2015	BAL	AL	86	305	34	85	147	17	0	15	39	9	0	79	2	0	.279	.306	.482	.788	1.13
2016	BAL	AL	162	615	82	164	279	38	1	25	82	21	0	137	1	2	.267	.298	.454	.752	1.23
2017	BAL	AL	160	622	92	182	313	35	0	32	105	35	0	142	1	0	.293	.338	.503	.841	1.06
2018	2 teams	-	131	473	61	110	197	22	1	21	61	19	2	115	1	1	.233	.266	.416	.682	1.30

 

Beckham

Season	Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
MLB Career	-	-	384	1310	162	330	556	54	14	48	151	90	0	403	12	9	.252	.304	.424	.728	1.28
2013	TB	AL	5	7	1	3	3	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	.429	.375	.429	.804	4.00
2015	TB	AL	82	203	24	45	87	7	4	9	37	13	0	69	3	1	.222	.274	.429	.702	1.59
2016	TB	AL	64	198	25	49	86	12	5	5	16	14	0	67	2	1	.247	.300	.434	.735	1.07
2017	2 teams	-	137	533	67	148	242	18	5	22	62	36	0	167	6	5	.278	.328	.454	.782	1.32
2018	BAL	AL	96	369	45	85	138	17	0	12	35	27	0	100	1	2	.230	.287	.374	.661	1.16

 

[atomic]

And I don't want Beckham on the team either. Beckham and Schoop combination is part of the reason we were losers.  I see absolutely no point in playing Schoop out of position at 3rd. Just as I saw no reason to play Beckham out of postion at third. 

 

[wildbillhiccup]

3 minutes ago, atomic said:

Doesn't change the fact their offensive stats are basically the same.  Schoop just has gotten a lot more plate appearances than Beckham.  2640 vs 1423.   If Beckham had as many plate appearances as Schoop his OWar would be higher if his other numbers stayed the same.   They are very similar players.  

 

 

You seriously have no legs in this argument. It's bordering on trolling it such a bad take. 

[atomic]

5 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I think you and I have very different definitions for the word "identical". It's also not as simple as just projecting out numbers. I'm not even a Schoop fan, but tiosay that Beckham is his equal is an insult. 

Schoop

Season	Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
MLB Career	-	-	681	2484	322	640	1104	130	2	110	333	98	2	597	7	3	.258	.294	.444	.738	1.22
2013	BAL	AL	5	14	5	4	7	0	0	1	1	1	0	2	0	0	.286	.333	.500	.833	9.00
2014	BAL	AL	137	455	48	95	161	18	0	16	45	13	0	122	2	0	.209	.244	.354	.598	1.36
2015	BAL	AL	86	305	34	85	147	17	0	15	39	9	0	79	2	0	.279	.306	.482	.788	1.13
2016	BAL	AL	162	615	82	164	279	38	1	25	82	21	0	137	1	2	.267	.298	.454	.752	1.23
2017	BAL	AL	160	622	92	182	313	35	0	32	105	35	0	142	1	0	.293	.338	.503	.841	1.06
2018	2 teams	-	131	473	61	110	197	22	1	21	61	19	2	115	1	1	.233	.266	.416	.682	1.30

 

Beckham

Season	Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
MLB Career	-	-	384	1310	162	330	556	54	14	48	151	90	0	403	12	9	.252	.304	.424	.728	1.28
2013	TB	AL	5	7	1	3	3	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	.429	.375	.429	.804	4.00
2015	TB	AL	82	203	24	45	87	7	4	9	37	13	0	69	3	1	.222	.274	.429	.702	1.59
2016	TB	AL	64	198	25	49	86	12	5	5	16	14	0	67	2	1	.247	.300	.434	.735	1.07
2017	2 teams	-	137	533	67	148	242	18	5	22	62	36	0	167	6	5	.278	.328	.454	.782	1.32
2018	BAL	AL	96	369	45	85	138	17	0	12	35	27	0	100	1	2	.230	.287	.374	.661	1.16

 

AVG, OBP and Slugging OPS are very similar. Beckham has slightly higher OBP and Schoop has slighty higher Slugging. But they are basically the same player.  Beckham's OWAR would be higher if they had the same plate appearances as Shortstop gives more OWAR than second base.   I dont' get the love of Schoop on here but he is basically Beckham. 

[atomic]

6 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

You seriously have no legs in this argument. It's bordering on trolling it such a bad take. 

You just posted the stats and proved it with facts. I  am not sure why you guys love Schoop so much. 

[Aglets]

Just now, atomic said:

AVG, OBP and Slugging OPS are very similar. Beckham has slightly higher OBP and Schoop has slighty higher Slugging. But they are basically the same player.  Beckham's OWAR would be higher if they had the same plate appearances as Shortstop gives more OWAR than second base.   I dont' get the love of Schoop on here but he is basically Beckham. 

Nelson Cruz has better career batting numbers than Manny Machado.   Is he a better player than Manny?

Or are there more tools to evaluate players than simple triple slash lines.

Search your feelings I think you know what to be true.

[wildbillhiccup]

19 minutes ago, atomic said:

AVG, OBP and Slugging OPS are very similar. Beckham has slightly higher OBP and Schoop has slighty higher Slugging. But they are basically the same player.  Beckham's OWAR would be higher if they had the same plate appearances as Shortstop gives more OWAR than second base.   I dont' get the love of Schoop on here but he is basically Beckham. 

You have no idea what would have happened if he had gotten more play appearances.