Harold Baines.....Lee Smith in Hall of Fame

[TonySoprano]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Just re-watched the video.   I think Tarasco would have caught it.    He barely left his feet.    But, I can’t say 100% for sure.    What I can say is, it sure wasn’t a HR.

[Palmoripken]

6 hours ago, TonySoprano said:

Tarasco wouldn't have caught it, but instead it bounces off the top of the fence.   Figures it was Captain Over-rated that hit it (and it was Armando pitching) to tie game 1 in the bottom of the 8th. Bernie Williams got the walkoff in the 11th off Randall K. Myers.

I heard it all on the radio driving back from my Godmother's funeral in South Carolina.   What nauseated me the most was how the little b-tard became a celebrity on Letterman and also Regis.

I think that’s what pissed me off the most. How he became a folk hero after that. Man I hated him. I was 9 that year. It didn’t help that the Yankees ended up winning the WS that year and the 3 of the next 4 & we began a long drought. Yankees fans have no idea what a bad run let alone a bad year is.

[Luke-OH]

Ben Zobrist compares pretty favorably to Harold Baines. We're going to need a bigger Hall.

[atomic]

34 minutes ago, Luke-OH said:

Ben Zobrist compares pretty favorably to Harold Baines. We're going to need a bigger Hall.

They aren't comparable at all.  Zobrist played a  lot of infield and only has 1500 career hits and a career OPS around .780 that is bound to go down. He would need over 1300 more hits to match Baines and he is almost 38.  Most likely ends up with 1000 less hits than Baines.

[Luke-OH]

2 minutes ago, atomic said:

They aren't comparable at all.  Zobrist played a  lot of infield and only has 1500 career hits and a career OPS around .780 that is bound to go down. He would need over 1300 more hits to match Baines and he is almost 38.  Most likely ends up with 1000 less hits than Baines.

Zobrist has played more challenging defensive positions and has been plus at second base, and above average in the outfield. 

Zobrist debuted much later and will likely end his career playing 1000 games less than Baines, yet he's produced more WAR by either the Fangraphs or Baseball Reference version.

Zobrist had a much, much better peak.

Over his top 5 consecutive seasons, he was worth 28.6 fWAR and had a wRC+ of 126, he was third in the league in fWAR over that period behind Votto and Cabrera. 

Baines on the other hand was worth 15.3 fWAR over his top 5 consecutive seasons and had a wRC+ 117, he was 44th in the league in fWAR over that period (Cal was #1).

The only thing Baines has on Zobrist is longevity, more chances to accumulate. He was never one of the top 10 players in baseball at any given time. 

[atomic]

2 minutes ago, Luke-OH said:

Zobrist has played more challenging defensive positions and has been plus at second base, and above average in the outfield. 

Zobrist debuted much later and will likely end his career playing 1000 games less than Baines, yet he's produced more WAR by either the Fangraphs or Baseball Reference version.

Zobrist had a much, much better peak.

Over his top 5 consecutive seasons, he was worth 28.6 fWAR and had a wRC+ of 126, he was third in the league in fWAR over that period behind Votto and Cabrera. 

Baines on the other hand was worth 15.3 fWAR over his top 5 consecutive seasons and had a wRC+ 117, he was 44th in the league in fWAR over that period (Cal was #1).

The only thing Baines has on Zobrist is longevity, more chances to accumulate. He was never one of the top 10 players in baseball at any given time. 

I said Zobrist played a lot of infield.  You said they are comparable players and they are not comparable at all.  If all you can say is WAR than you have nothing to bring to the table.  Why even bother to post? 

[Luke-OH]

4 minutes ago, atomic said:

I said Zobrist played a lot of infield.  You said they are comparable players and they are not comparable at all.  If all you can say is WAR than you have nothing to bring to the table.  Why even bother to post? 

I said compared favorably, aka, had a better case. Not that they were similar players. 

The Hall is about being great, Baines was never great, only good, consistent player. 

Tell me one thing that's better for judging a HOF candidate than WAR?

[atomic]

Just now, Luke-OH said:

I said compared favorably, aka, had a better case. Not that they were similar players. 

The Hall is about being great, Baines was never great, only good, consistent player. 

Tell me one thing that's better for judging a HOF candidate than WAR?

Well if all you can come up with WAR you shouldn't even post. First off there are different versions of WAR but even if you said Baseball Reference is the one that should be used any post about players. Any moron can look up a list of players listed by WAR.  I wonder if people on here know nothing about statistical analysis as all they can come up with as WAR like it is some perfect stat. 

I am not saying Baines is a much better player than Zobrist but you cant really compare the two.  Reggie Jackson and Ozzie Smith both have around the same WAR but you really cant compare the two. 

[Luke-OH]

2 minutes ago, atomic said:

Well if all you can come up with WAR you shouldn't even post. First off there are different versions of WAR but even if you said Baseball Reference is the one that should be used any post about players. Any moron can look up a list of players listed by WAR.  I wonder if people on here know nothing about statistical analysis as all they can come up with as WAR like it is some perfect stat. 

I am not saying Baines is a much better player than Zobrist but you cant really compare the two.  Reggie Jackson and Ozzie Smith both have around the same WAR but you really cant compare the two. 

Ok, teach me, what type of statistical analysis do you consider when determining HOF worthiness?

Does performance relative to the rest of the league matter?

Does defensive ability matter?

Does someone need to be a better hitter if they play a more demanding defensive position?

[atomic]

3 minutes ago, Luke-OH said:

Ok, teach me, what type of statistical analysis do you consider when determining HOF worthiness?

Does performance relative to the rest of the league matter?

Does defensive ability matter?

Does someone need to be a better hitter if they play a more demanding defensive position?

You compare guys that play the same position to each other.  You cant compare a power hitting high strike out Right fielder to a slick fielding fast shortstop with no power.  

I already said Baines wouldn't be in Hall if his career hadn't been so long.  Him playing 1000 more games than Zobrist is an accomplishment.  To play at a high level for so many games is a desirable attribute.  

I see no way that Zobrist ends up in the Hall.  He has nothing other than playing a lot of positions that marks him as exceptional.  Baines had a ton of hits and a relatively high average and OPS for a very long time. 

[Luke-OH]

10 minutes ago, atomic said:

You compare guys that play the same position to each other.  You cant compare a power hitting high strike out Right fielder to a slick fielding fast shortstop with no power.  

I already said Baines wouldn't be in Hall if his career hadn't been so long.  Him playing 1000 more games than Zobrist is an accomplishment.  To play at a high level for so many games is a desirable attribute.  

I see no way that Zobrist ends up in the Hall.  He has nothing other than playing a lot of positions that marks him as exceptional.  Baines had a ton of hits and a relatively high average and OPS for a very long time. 

I agree and that was my point, that if you put Baines in, it becomes a really big HOF.

I'll stop talking about Zobrist and play along, because this was never as much about Zobrist as it was that adding Baines makes the Hall way too big.

What about Adam Dunn, better OPS than Baines, 462 HRs, is he a HOFer?

[Number5]

2 hours ago, Luke-OH said:

Ben Zobrist compares pretty favorably to Harold Baines. We're going to need a bigger Hall.

 

[atomic]

11 minutes ago, Luke-OH said:

I agree and that was my point, that if you put Baines in, it becomes a really big HOF.

I'll stop talking about Zobrist and play along, because this was never as much about Zobrist as it was that adding Baines makes the Hall way too big.

What about Adam Dunn, better OPS than Baines, 462 HRs, is he a HOFer?

No he had a .237 average and led the league in strike outs 5 seasons.  It would be interesting if he hit 500 home runs as no one would want an awful player like Dunn in HOF. It makes you wonder if teams decided to not sign guys like Dunn and Kingman at the end to keep them for getting 500 home runs.

If you were using a WAR threshold scenario for HOF admittance than Sandy Koufax wouldn't be in the HOF.  I think you have to judge players by all their stats and accomplishments.  I would not have voted Baines but the comparisons based purely on WAR in this thread are way off base.

I would for example put Mark Belanger in Hall of Fame before Bobby Grich.  I would rate Belanger up there with Brooks and Ozzie Smith as top defenders I have seen play. 

[Luke-OH]

4 minutes ago, atomic said:

No he had a .237 average and led the league in strike outs 5 seasons.  It would be interesting if he hit 500 home runs as no one would want an awful player like Dunn in HOF. It makes you wonder if teams decided to not sign guys like Dunn and Kingman at the end to keep them for getting 500 home runs.

If you were using a WAR threshold scenario for HOF admittance than Sandy Koufax wouldn't be in the HOF.  I think you have to judge players by all their stats and accomplishments.  I would not have voted Baines but the comparisons based purely on WAR in this thread are way off base.

I would for example put Mark Belanger in Hall of Fame before Bobby Grich.  I would rate Belanger up there with Brooks and Ozzie Smith as top defenders I have seen play. 

A player's peak is more important to me than their longevity (which is a factor, but a secondary one for me), Koufax had an otherworldly peak.

I mentioned Dunn because you used OPS as criteria for Hall worthiness and since Dunn has a better career OPS and also better context neutral hitting stats, why is he a terrible player and Baines not? Is strikeout rate (regardless of overall hitting value) part of your assessment?

And as far as basing purely on WAR, I'm not doing that, Dunn has less WAR than Baines, I'm comparing two players who played some in the field but a large part of their careers at DH. Baines played longer, but Dunn was a better hitter most measures. 

[atomic]

7 minutes ago, Luke-OH said:

A player's peak is more important to me than their longevity (which is a factor, but a secondary one for me), Koufax had an otherworldly peak.

I mentioned Dunn because you used OPS as criteria for Hall worthiness and since Dunn has a better career OPS and also better context neutral hitting stats, why is he a terrible player and Baines not? Is strikeout rate (regardless of overall hitting value) part of your assessment?

And as far as basing purely on WAR, I'm not doing that, Dunn has less WAR than Baines, I'm comparing two players who played some in the field but a large part of their careers at DH. Baines played longer, but Dunn was a better hitter most measures. 

I judge hitters differently than you. I think high strike out, low average,  high power guys are overrated by WAR.  And their negativity increases with the more of them  you have on the tesm.

If we just used WAR to compare players Lou Whitaker is a better player than Jim Palmer.  I think without even looking at stats you would know Baines is a better player than Dunn.

Also with just using WAR it makes discussing players comparable worth boring.