Dempsey is helping Austin Wynns

[wildbillhiccup]

9 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Dempsey has an argument for being the best catcher in Orioles history despite hitting a little like Ryan Flaherty.  It's close between him and Chris Hoiles, who had a short career and was not a good defensive catcher.

Although that says as much about the franchise's lack of excellent catchers than anything else.

Chris Hoiles...the man who almost found a way to have less HRs than RBIs.

[Frobby]

Just now, weams said:

And all of the defensive data is lacking. 

It is never going to be perfect.   In my opinion the data is generally better than it was 10 years ago.    I think the Statcast data is a big advance, for example.    Anecdotally, I don’t see as many instances of defensive metrics that run directly contrary to the eye test.    And I don’t see as many cases where the different versions of advanced metrics reach opposite results.     

Catching is really tricky, though.     There’s a lot to it that’s not readily captured in a stat.    

[Number5]

1 minute ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Chris Hoiles...the man who almost found a way to have less HRs than RBIs.

I think you reversed the two there.  Players pretty much always have less HRs than RBIs.

[Moose Milligan]

Hoiles, 20 homers, 40 RBI in '92.  Pretty crazy.

[weams]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It is never going to be perfect.   In my opinion the data is generally better than it was 10 years ago.    I think the Statcast data is a big advance, for example.    Anecdotally, I don’t see as many instances of defensive metrics that run directly contrary to the eye test.    And I don’t see as many cases where the different versions of advanced metrics reach opposite results.     

Catching is really tricky, though.     There’s a lot to it that’s not readily captured in a stat.    

I disagree. I think the formulas don't incorporate the statcast data yet. Not well anyway. I still think they all flounder and are used to support confirmation bias. 

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, Number5 said:

I think you reversed the two there.  Players pretty much always have less HRs than RBIs.

I don’t see much justification for the comment, anyway.   151 homers, 449 RBI.    That’s a pretty normal ratio for a power hitter.  He did have one year of 20 homers, 40 RBI, which is a little unusual.    

[DrungoHazewood]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Catching is probably the hardest defensive position to capture in a metric.    

Clearly.  We can't even get people to agree on the scope of a catcher's influence.  It's almost like judging managers, I'm not totally convinced that catching is a fully transferrable skill.  Buck might mean 10 wins to the 2012 Orioles, but one to the 2013 Orioles, and there's almost no way to tell.  A catcher might be very valuable to one team or one staff, and a negative to another.

But for now a sensible approach is the conservative metrics that are currently derived from available data.  I don't think there's anything obviously implausible about Rick Dempsey being +71 runs defensively, as bb-ref says.  I'm just not confident about the error bars.  And I'm very skeptical about claims that catchers should be credited with outsized run values for CERA or pitch framing or whatever.  We know there is no consistent effect of huge gains or losses in team runs allowed when a bad catcher is replaced by a good one.

[Moose Milligan]

The title of this thread should be changed to "Dempsey is annoying Austin Wynns and @interloper"

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, weams said:

I disagree. I think the formulas don't incorporate the statcast data yet. Not well anyway. I still think they all flounder and are used to support confirmation bias. 

So far as I know, UZR, Rtot and Rdrs don’t use Statcast at all.    But by and large Statcast is in agreement with what those stats say, at least directionally.    

[weams]

Just now, Frobby said:

So far as I know, UZR, Rtot and Rdrs don’t use Statcast at all.    But by and large Statcast is in agreement with what those stats say, at least directionally.    

I like statcast for the most part. I reject most of the data that tries to incorporate defense as mortally flawed. 

[interloper]

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

The title of this thread should be changed to "Dempsey is annoying Austin Wynns and @interloper"

Here are some choice excerpts from the official Rick Dempsey website, www.rickdempsey24.com:

Quote

Former Orioles catcher and 1983 World Series MVP Rick Dempsey is in his second fifth  year as a member of the Orioles broadcast team after five years on the club’s coaching staff.

Quote

This season marks Dempsey’s 44th 48th year working in professional baseball. 

Quote

Autographed Bat

Rick Dempsey MLB Louisville Slugger, white ash bat, autographed
$135

Quote

Whether you’re looking for a keynote speaker, a company spokesperson, or you’d like to hire the best catching instructor in the world, Rick Dempsey always delivers.

Quote

As a company spokesperson, Rick is a familiar face who inspires trust in everyone he reaches. With his experience hosting O’s Xtra, the Orioles’ televised pre- and post-game shows, Rick is very comfortable in front of a camera and will make shooting a commercial for your company a breeze. He is also the perfect spokesperson to choose for live interviews. Using his natural wit and charm, Rick easily establishes rapport with journalists and always delivers your message.

Quote

THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF RICK DEMPSEY
THE GREATEST CATCHER OF HIS ERA

[wildbillhiccup]

14 minutes ago, Number5 said:

I think you reversed the two there.  Players pretty much always have less HRs than RBIs.

I did. I'm blaming my dyslexic reasoning on lack of coffee

[LookinUp]

I feel like the defensive data around just about every other position than catcher is good, and much clearer inside smart teams than through statistics like dWAR. For catchers, I have no idea what teams are doing.

The value of data is putting some quantitative value to what was traditionally done with an eye test. We can still tell, with an eye test or simple statistics, if a catcher is a mess behind the plate. Things like passed balls and CS% help give a casual observer some data to support that eye test. However, beyond that simple approach, I have no idea how to quantify the differences between to players at that position.

[Frobby]

Those website quotes are pretty hilarious.  

[Going Underground]

2 minutes ago, interloper said:

Here are some choice excerpts from the official Rick Dempsey website, www.rickdempsey24.com:

He did not mention that his restaurant has a four star Michelin rating and considered one of the top 10 restaurants in the world?